Ijeoma Kola: 0:13

Welcome to the Cohort Sisters podcast, where we give voice to the stories, struggles and successes of black women with doctoral degrees. I'm your host, dr Jamakola, and today we have the privilege of speaking with Dr Kimberly Murray, who is here to share her inspiring journey of thriving in both a traditional nine to five, as well as pursuing creative and entrepreneurial pursuits. With a PhD in clinical psychology, dr Murray has managed to excel in a 16 year career at the CDC, while running a successful commercial photography business, launching a jewelry design venture and starting an evaluation consulting firm. I am so excited to dig into this conversation as someone who very firmly identifies as a multi hyphenate, multi passionate person as well, so I'm excited for this one. Welcome to the podcast, dr Murray. Thank you so much, dr Kola. So tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from, where you live? What are some of the things that you'd like to do outside of work?

Kimberly Murray: 1:12

Yes, so I am originally from Long Island, new York. I live in Douglasville, georgia, which is a suburb right outside of Atlanta, and I love to do a lot of things. I love anything that's kind of creative, that's fun. I love roller skating, I love crafting Puzzles, I love reading. I used to really love photography Took a break from that and then just kind of spending time with my family, with my kids, with my sisters, going out to brunch I'm like you name it cookies, donuts, the whole nine yards.

Ijeoma Kola: 1:50

Okay, I am. Anytime anyone mentions brunch, I have to ask are you a savory brunch person or a sweet brunch person?

Kimberly Murray: 1:57

You know what's interesting? I find myself changing. I used to totally be a sweets. I would love waffles, french toast. Now I'm kind of leaning towards like shrimp and grits. Okay, so a little of both.

Ijeoma Kola: 2:12

Nice, I'm 100% savory, but my husband's 100% sweet. So, like we're always, I'm always like. I know exactly like he's going to get the french toast, like every time we go out to eat for brunch, and I'm always going to get, like, whatever has the most bacon in it. So I always have to ask folks sorry, what did you say?

Kimberly Murray: 2:31

No, sorry, I said bacon all the time, all day, every day.

Ijeoma Kola: 2:35

Absolutely so. How did you become interested in clinical psychology as a kid? Were you interested in psychology? Did you kind of come to it in college? What was the point in your life where you realized that you wanted to pursue this academically?

Kimberly Murray: 2:49

Yes, so as a kid I wanted to be a medical doctor. So I really wanted to be a pediatrician. My aunt is a pediatrician and loved to kind of dissecting animals early on when I was, say, in seventh grade. But then there came a point when I started to not like the smell of formaldehyde and so I thought, hmm, not for me. And then I went to undergrad at Howard University and had a lot of really great psychology professors, was really into research at that time and then was just trying to figure out how can I still I know it sounds kind of so cliche but help people, but not help them in a medical sense, and really was interested just in clinical psychology from that perspective and from that point on.

Ijeoma Kola: 3:34

Yes, I can 100% relate. So, even though it's, you know, help people. I think a lot of folks who enter into especially the ones I've talked to on the podcast, who enter into fields like psychology or public health a lot of us kind of got there, you know, thinking that we wanted to be doctors first, because that's often the like what's available to us, Like well, that's a career that we either our families tell us about or people kind of pushes to if they seem to realize that we're like academically gifted. I feel like as kids we think that that's like the only way to make a difference, like to be a medical doctor. But as we are able to go to college and experience other things, most of our, many of our perspectives are brought in beyond just the operating room and the doctor's office. So I completely relate to that trajectory as well.

Ijeoma Kola: 4:26

So talk to me about you know you went to Howard for undergrad. Talk to me about kind of the undergrad to PhD process. Did you go straight through? Did you do some things between? How did you kind of prepare yourself for the doctoral application process?

Kimberly Murray: 4:39

Yes, so at Howard I was a member of different research labs just to kind of get a sense for what research is and if I was even interested in it. And then I was also back in the like. I feel like I'm going to date myself. Back in the day there was a program called Core Mark. I think now it might just be called Mark or maybe, if it doesn't exist, it may not exist, but career opportunities and research minority access to research careers. And so there was a core Mark program that I was part of and that again was just exposure to research.

Kimberly Murray: 5:12

And then I did a summer research opportunity program we called it at SROP at Michigan, one of the summers between kind of Howard and then where I ultimately did my PhD. And so through all of those experiences I got more exposure to research. What it was like different types of research, different types of research, advisors and kind of was really excited about it. And from there I knew that I wanted to pursue a doctorate in psychology and then I went straight through. So I went from graduating college undergrad in May and then at Michigan they had an opportunity for you to do your stats courses before this program even began, and so I did a summer stats program. That started, I think, in June. So I graduated, got on the plane, flew to Michigan and started the program the very next month.

Ijeoma Kola: 6:04

Wow, you wasted no time whatsoever. So I have you know. You said you are from Long Island, so from New York. I also grew up in the Northeast and from Jersey and I now live in the Midwest, in Indiana, and so going to school in the Midwest, can you talk to me a little bit about, you know, was there any kind of culture shock or did you experience any, yeah, cultural differences? You know, going from New York to DC, to Michigan? Was that an element or a factor for you at all?

Kimberly Murray: 6:36

I would say it didn't really feel like it, to be honest. It was cold, there was a lot of snow more than I think even DC had at the time and maybe the only I would say difference was maybe going from an HBCU to now a PWI, although our program had a lot of students of color in it, which was fabulous and really helped with that transition. So there wasn't as much of a culture shock, which was nice.

Ijeoma Kola: 7:05

Yeah, awesome. So why did you choose to go to Michigan? Did you explore other schools? I know that you said you had done a summer research program, so perhaps you had more exposure there, but can you just talk to us about, like the application, how you navigated the application process and what you're thinking was going into it?

Kimberly Murray: 7:24

Yeah. So I did what hopefully most people should do, which is to explore, you know, kind of the advisors that are available at whatever institution you're interested in applying to and kind of seeing what their research interests are, to see if there is a match. And for me, I really was focused on Michigan in particular, because that is where I did the SROP program and had a connection with a particular advisor there. And then just also just like the campus, I like the campus, I like the psych program and apply. But to be honest, I was initially waitlisted when I applied to Michigan and the year that I was accepted they only accepted four students and so we were the smallest cohort that they had ever had and I think after that they didn't have another cohort of four either. And so it was a competitive process, happy to be accepted, and then ultimately chose to attend and was really excited about that.

Ijeoma Kola: 8:20

So, with being such a small cohort, especially in a department where that's not the norm, did you feel like you had difficulty building community, or was that not difficult because the rest of the program was pretty sizable? I also was in a small cohort and I feel like I only had three friends, which is my cohort mates. But I would just love to know about your experience being in such a small cohort at such a large institution. Was that isolating, or was that not a factor at all?

Kimberly Murray: 8:53

It wasn't a factor. It was interesting because my cohort, we were really close and I don't know if I'm assuming it wasn't purposeful, but there were two African American students, two white students, two women, two men, but we were all really close knit and we would have gatherings dinners together. The other African American student, his name is Yohanse. I ultimately married him years later, but that's like another story altogether. After like decades we finally got married.

Kimberly Murray: 9:24

But what was nice at Michigan too is that there was one, there was a program, students of Color of Rackham, and so all of the Students of Color across the graduate program, so not just in psychology.

Kimberly Murray: 9:35

That was an opportunity to kind of just build community across the campus. But then there was a really thriving Black Student Psychological Association that I was a member of. And it was nice because even before the year before I was accepted and joined the program BSPA, the Black Student Psychological Association had a gathering and we flew into Michigan, I think we went bowling just to kind of get to know the students who were already there ahead of us and get to ask some questions. Really they nurtured and mentored us before we even enrolled in the university. So that was a really nice connection, and then I'm still close friends with a number of those individuals now, like decades later. And so just having won, the Black Student Association scored the Students of Color of Rackham, and then just my unique cohort was nice, and then there were also faculty of color who were also very supportive throughout that process.

Ijeoma Kola: 10:34

Nice. I love that this was such a perfect fit for you and I think that a lesson that I hope listeners and viewers take away is that, as you're making these decisions, that it's really important, especially in light of the new and still coming challenges to diversity, recruitment, admissions, even just programming efforts at higher ed institutions, it's really important to find programs who are already doing the work of supporting their students of color, who already have systems and programs and initiatives in place, so that you don't have to show up and be the person to figure out how to create community and support for folks like you. And unfortunately, you know, we're in a moment right now where universities are going to have to make a very specific choice about whether they want to invest, continue to invest, in our recruitment and our support, or whether they're going to say, oh, our hands are tied, we can't do anything. So I really hope that people, as it's not just about the big names, it's not just about who is there in terms of your faculty advisor, although those are important but does the institution that you're going to really invest in its students of color? Does it care? Are there support systems in place for you? It sounds like, and I've also. I've talked to a couple of other people who've gone to Michigan and it's always people. I've heard no drama yet from the University of Michigan, across campuses, so that's really exciting.

Ijeoma Kola: 12:00

However, I would be remiss to not bring up the like really low key. Oh, I just ended up like marrying the other black student in my cohort. Please tell us as much or as little as you would like to share about that story, because I mean, for a number of reasons, black men are a rarity in higher education, so oftentimes people ask oh, why are you just focusing on black women? And we know all of the different outcomes that we have. There are like black men are even less represented in doctoral education. So like what? I feel like that's just like unicorn, but to being able to find one that you liked in your program just seems like God. So please just tell us more about how this happened.

Kimberly Murray: 12:52

And so I think it was a natural connection, we were friends and ultimately best friends, annoyed everyone, because everyone would ask you know kind of what's going on? And we would say, oh, we're just friends, we're just friends, we're just friends. And it turned out, I think one of the women who we're both close to, he says, told him, oh, you shouldn't date a colleague. And so you know, it's like interesting. And at first he liked me. I didn't like him. I was like, oh, he's too nice, he's too skinny. And then I liked him and he, you know, had moved on and he was, you know, exploring other pastors. So I'm like, okay, so we just remained friends forever and for ages and we didn't even formally date until we both had graduated, so maybe a decade later, and then we didn't get married until about 12 years after we first met. So we were friends for a very long time, got engaged, ultimately got married and the rest is history.

Ijeoma Kola: 13:51

But I love that. I love that. I hope people are not trying to think that that's going to be their life, because then I've literally never heard this before, but I love it for you and I'm so glad that you shared that special part of your story with us. So obviously one of the highlights was meeting your life partner of your doctoral program. Can you share another really high moment as well, as you know one of the more challenging elements of the program for you.

Kimberly Murray: 14:19

You know, and we talked a lot about community, but I feel like one of the highest moments in addition to, of course, earning the doctorate was really connecting with a number of the other students there and just kind of learning from one another Right, there's a lot of brilliance, I think, in the graduate program and also just getting that support and recognizing your own brilliance, right, because you can feel like, oh, this isn't that special, oh, I don't really feel like I'm as smart as the people around me, and it really takes your friends and your support networks to really help you to recognize like, wow, I belong here, I'm as smart as everyone else, I'm brilliant too and I have a lot to contribute, and, I think, also just tapping into the expertise of some of the mentors and advisors there.

Kimberly Murray: 15:03

So those were all high moments for me. Challenges you know one challenge and this is, I think, just specific and unique maybe not just unique to me. There will be other people who are introverts, which people don't believe now, but at the time, you know, I was that member of four and I was incredibly shy and very quiet and so and I kid you not, I swear I could count on one hand the number of times I spoke during class, right, but you have to find your voice right and kind of get out of your own way and not be afraid to speak up, share your opinion, even if it's different from somebody else's opinion, and be afraid of how you sound and if I sound like I'm going to, you know, actually belong here. And so for me, one of the biggest challenges was just finding my voice and not kind of just remaining in the shadows, even though I did for probably the four years that I was there at Michigan. Those were the main ones.

Ijeoma Kola: 16:08

Yeah, I completely relate to not saying anything in class. I think for me it wasn't due to shyness, but it was really because I did. I second guessed everything. I would like replay. I would try to formulate my whole thought in my head, first before I said it, to make sure that it sounded okay, and then, by the time I finished formulating it like somebody would make the point of, like well, there was my point, so it's over.

Ijeoma Kola: 16:35

And yeah, I think that that was that's definitely one of the most difficult parts of my own journey and I think that, for a variety of reasons, if we feel like, if we question whether or not we belong, if we're shy, if we are in a hostile environment, there are so many different reasons why we might not be able to contribute as much in classes and in our coursework. But I really encourage and I appreciate you for lifting this that we have to find our voice because unfortunately, you know, what I've also realized is that whether or not you're right, like you could be wrong, but if you're loud enough, if people hear you, like that, that earns respect or notoriety or like, say that there's a faculty member who is looking for a research assistant, you know the person who contributes the most in class, who speaks up the most in class, is going to be top of mind for them, even if they're not the right person. Right. And so, as you're thinking about different opportunities, being able to share your perspective and to lift your voice is really really crucial.

Ijeoma Kola: 17:36

And if you can't do that in the classroom, to make sure that you're doing that outside of the classroom. So, like you know, going to office hours, if you don't, if you're not comfortable for a variety of reasons speaking up in class, you still kind of should push through to make the effort to connect with your faculty outside of the classroom. So thanks so much for sharing that perspective as well. You highlighted some that there were faculty of color. Did you have any black women mentors who, on the faculty side, are really critical and crucial to your journey?

Kimberly Murray: 18:07

Yes, yes, there was one particular woman, dr Jackie Matisse. She's now in the New York, new Jersey area, but I mean she was a mentor to so many women and so many students, not even just women, so many students of color there, and not of color too. I mean she's just fabulous, phenomenal, really inspiring woman, and so definitely her, and then other faculty members, yes, and not even just black women, but there was an Asian woman as well and then just more senior students, I would say, were also just very supportive and mentors to me as well.

Ijeoma Kola: 18:48

Awesome.

Kimberly Murray: 18:49

And I will also say even though this is a little off topic, so I hope that's okay when I was thinking also of challenges and this is particularly for women who are considering a clinical site program or probably even clinical social work or anything that's in that kind of counseling kind of area just being mindful that sometimes there might be coursework that then brings up kind of the past for you that could be challenging, right, and so recognizing that and also being open to even having a therapist or exploring therapy while you are a graduate student yes, it's great to have a supportive network, to have friends and colleagues who can support you and help you through things but also just recognizing that sometimes you might need more and to being open to that to really help be successful on your journey.

Ijeoma Kola: 19:41

Absolutely, and so you also just reminded me that I forgot to ask you about your dissertation. What was your dissertation about? What did you study? What did you find?

Kimberly Murray: 19:50

Yes, so it's interesting. I had to pull it out. I was like, oh, let me pull this off of the shelf to be reminded. I knew that the question might come up and so I really looked at what I called predictors of health protective sexual communication among black women and men so basically the extent to which black women and men engage in safer sex communication and really found that issues of gender empower really played a role. It was interesting that women were slightly more likely to initiate and engage in discussions around safer sex than men were, of course, because a lot of times we might have more consequences that might come from having unprotected sex, like pregnancy or maybe STIs as well. But also women who felt empowered just around their own sexuality, around their own sexual pleasure, decision making, were more apt to communicate as well.

Ijeoma Kola: 20:45

Thank you so much for sharing that. You mentioned like bringing it off the shelf and I'm laughing because I can. You know my dissertation is it's. I got a print date. I got five, five little books scattered around. I think my parents have one, I think my mother-in-law has one, and I don't know where the arrests are, but they're scattered around. But I'm now trying to think, like you know, like 15 years from now, like does like, will this matter, like will I care? Well, I even remember. So I'd love for you to share how, if at all, your dissertation work has informed your career trajectory, either in terms of methodology or research interests. And if it hasn't, that's that's also super valid. But I'm just kind of curious the link between, if there is a link between, what you did then and like what you do now okay, okay, that's interesting.

Kimberly Murray: 21:42

I think there were little links along the way, so I think the next decision always linked to the one that was previous, and so, and in the graduate school, I think that's when I first really started to really tap into being multi-passionate, kind of being a multi-hyphenate if you could tell from the dissertation title it's kind of public healthy even though it was in, you know, clinical psych. And while I was in graduate school I thought about trying to get another degree concurrent with the PhD was like, oh, I want to get an MPH or maybe even see if I can do a joint doctoral program in public health as well as in clinical psych, which somebody had done. And then someone was saying to me like no, no, like you don't need to do all that, I just have a public health focused dissertation and you'll be fine and so. But then I did do. My postdoc was at the HIV Center for clinical and behavioral studies in New York. It's connected to Columbia University, and so I did continue along that trajectory of kind of sexuality research. And then my postdoc was really focused around adolescent girl sexuality and their sexual cognition, so the way that they think and behave and feel about sexuality and sex in general and really loved that there was a component with that that wasn't just research but really helping to lead a, an intervention program. And then I had the opportunity also to conceptualize and co-develop a research training program for undergraduate students of color who are focused on gender and sexuality research. So that was really exciting.

Kimberly Murray: 23:17

And then at some point, to be honest, I became a little jaded about about academia and about kind of publishing for publishing's sake and oh, everybody should want to get an R01 or like this big research grant. And at the time of my postdoc it was expected to be a three-year postdoc. You could do two years and then there was an option to do the third, but there was the expectation that of course, everybody wants to do a third year and I was like, no, no, thank you, thank you. Because I was feeling like some people get really excited about publishing. Of course, like with my first publication that you know, it's like, oh, this is really exciting. But over time I thought, well, what's the point of publishing for the article to go sit in some journal, for other academicians and researchers to read these articles and cite them, and the people who need the information? They're not reading these like academic journals, like what's? What's the point? I don't really care, it didn't kind of matter that much to me, so I left that.

Kimberly Murray: 24:21

At one point I was just an evaluation consultant. I also took courses in interior design and fashion design. I was a professor for a year in the CUNY City University of New York system. I was an academic advisor. And then I at some point was kind of like over New York and needed a break and also was thinking I'm ready to just kind of have a full-time job, get back to public health.

Kimberly Murray: 24:48

And then that's when I applied for a job at the large public health agency in the federal government. I'm not going to mention the name, although it has been mentioned. I will say that everything that I say are my own thoughts, not those of the agency. Just put that disclaimer out there.

Kimberly Murray: 25:02

But then I did kind of come back full circle, because my first job there at the public health agency was as a behavioral scientist in HIV prevention and so I was really working to really help to package and disseminate behavioral interventions for HIV and those packages were disseminated to community-based organizations, to health departments, and I helped to lead a multi-disciplinary group of like anthropologists, sociologists, other psychologists, public health experts, to package and disseminate those interventions. That's not what I'm doing now, but that was kind of what got me in the door and now that I'm the senior advisor for strategic planning in a different branch, I'm really focused more on other special projects, some relating to employee engagement, diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, belonging. That was like a mouthful, but really looking at developing a strategic plan and studying the strategic direction for for the French awesome.

Ijeoma Kola: 26:05

I'm so glad that you kind of took us along that journey with you because you know I was. I was like going through your LinkedIn. I was like you have done, you have lived a life and I think sometimes when an outsider like reads someone's CV or like looks at you know all the different things someone has done on LinkedIn it could kind of seem like they had a whole plan and like this was the plan and they have like executed the plan. But I appreciate you saying that it wasn't necessarily that step one was connected to step five, but like they each just kind of built on one another, because I think, at least for me, that gives folks hopes that they don't need to have it all figured out. They just need to like get to the next step and then you'll continue progressing.

Ijeoma Kola: 26:50

After that, I was like vigorously head nodding at everything you said about academia. I concur, and I was interested to hear that you did additional classes. You said in like photography and interior design. Interior design is one of my hobbies, so that's interesting. But I'm curious about why not why, but how you still found a love for learning after completing a PhD and why. I'm asking is because I cannot envision doing any more organized education. So what was it like? What inspired you to continue learning, even though you had like become an expert in a specific field? And I had the papers and the letters behind your name to say that, like you're an expert, you know the things. Why do more school or more coursework?

Kimberly Murray: 27:51

for me and that's a great question for me. I think it's just ingrained in me and I feel like, why not? It's interesting, because one of the things when you said that, I realized, oh, I didn't mention that I also got another degree after that. So I did get another degree after the PhD, so I also have a masters of science in biostatistics. Why, here's the thing, right. So with the doc, with the postdoc, we also have the opportunity to enroll in that specific program, the biosatts program at Columbia, for free, okay. And so I thought it's a free degree. Sure, I can just take more coursework, knock it out, do this to your thing, why not? It's a free degree. In my mind I'm thinking more degrees could only mean more opportunities, right.

Kimberly Murray: 28:46

But I've always kind of had this creative side, so I always need to do something else. Even in grad school we would have crafting parties. I would make like fabric-covered journals and drybrush, you know, stencils, note cards. I just love doing that creative stuff. And there came a point. It was after the postdoc and probably during the postdoc, but after the postdoc I was a professor and I was thinking honestly like what feels like it's most? I hate using the word authentic, but I'll use authentic anyway.

Kimberly Murray: 29:19

Authentic for me was a creative career at that time, or it's just something different than research at the time and I thought, oh, I want to be a buyer at Macy's why I wasn't really even super into fashion, not sure. Or I want to be an interior designer, and so that's why I started taking those courses. I would wake up at like 3 am to do my drafting homework for the interior design program and I loved it. You know, sometimes I was stressed because I was waking up early and then going to teach, but it energized me. I loved it. I love taking classes. I was taking photography courses, ultimately like taught courses as well, creative courses, but I love learning. I would take more courses now if I could, if I didn't have two kids and have more time. Find me up.

Ijeoma Kola: 30:08

Find me up, please, and thank you so you started to kind of talk about time management, which maybe it was just waking up early. But can you say a little bit more in terms of how you balanced your creative pursuits and making time for those alongside working alongside what is probably beyond a night. Teaching is beyond a nine to five. So you know how did you look for some of the strategies that you used to be able to create time for the creative?

Kimberly Murray: 30:38

I think one just prioritizing. And I will say it also helps if you don't have other responsibilities. At the time I wasn't married, I didn't have any children, so this will be a different kind of story if you have these other challenges or not challenges, other addition, additional responsibilities right in your life. And so it was really about prioritizing what was important to me and for me and just carving out the time. I mean, sometimes it's as simple as putting it on the calendar this is the time I'm going to do my work. And yes, teaching definitely was more than just kind of like a set hours. Sometimes you're responding to student concerns, you have to grade those papers, and then sometimes students have challenges and they're coming to you for advice or for support, and so you want to make time for that. And really I feel like it's about recognizing what was most important to me, scheduling the time for it and then not letting anything kind of interfere with what I had already blocked, you know, blocked out and set aside.

Ijeoma Kola: 31:36

Nice, great advice Get it on the calendar and prioritize it. So what do you think are some misconceptions that people have about juggling multiple passions and how do you address those misconceptions?

Kimberly Murray: 31:50

One. I think that the one misconception is that it means that you're flaky and that you don't know what you want to do. And sometimes you know, you may even feel like that, like, oh, I just need to figure it out. I just need to narrow it down to one thing, and I think that it's important to know that it is okay to be multifaceted and to be interested in a number of things, and it doesn't have to make sense to anybody, but you, you know. So that's one way to kind of deal with that. I love that.

Kimberly Murray: 32:20

Another, I think is that you'll always love what you do, because I think that when you're juggling multiple passions, there's this expectation or this idea that, oh, you're just so happy, you're doing everything that you love and you're always going to love it, and that you can't burn out from it. And you absolutely can burn out from something that you're passionate about, and you may need to be able to do that. You may even need to stop doing something that you're passionate about and you may need to take a break, and you may even need to just stop doing it all together and you want to take a pivot. And then sometimes I think you feel like, oh, no, I can't do that, because then I'm going to prove them right. Like these other people that were saying, oh, you're doing too much, girl, like you need to pick one thing. You feel like, oh, I need to stick with it because other people are watching me and now it's going to look like I failed because I decided I didn't want to do that anymore. You know, you just have to be true to yourself.

Kimberly Murray: 33:15

Do what you feel genuinely interested in doing and if you're tired, take a break. If you don't like it anymore, don't do it. You know, pivot stop whatever, halt right in your place. Whatever you need to do to just continue I mean, this is what I've learned over time, of course is just to follow your curiosity, and that's kind of what I do all the time, every day. What I also hope that I will instill in my children too follow your passion, follow your curiosity. If you're then start to become curious about this thing over here, turn your head, you know, like oh, that's interesting too. And I think that people the last thing I'll say is that I feel like people think, oh, you have shiny object syndrome if you decide that you want to do something new, and people always say, like shiny object syndrome, like, oh, you're just interested in anything that seems new and exciting. And no, I think that you can have a genuine interest in that. And so those are a couple of things.

Ijeoma Kola: 34:16

Yeah yeah.

Ijeoma Kola: 34:18

You're like speaking to my spirit, speaking so deeply to my spirit. I mean, when you said you know that you might hesitate, like pivoting, because you don't want to prove them wrong like that. It was really my story for several months. I just just retired. I was an influencer for 10 years and I retired at the beginning of the year. I closed the chapter of that part of my life and I really struggled with, you know, deciding not to do it anymore because it had been such a huge part of my identity and, like I, while I was in grad school, I was influencing.

Ijeoma Kola: 34:50

When I finished my PhD was influencing. I started teaching, I started, I started my postdoc and I was still juggling everything and loved doing it up to a point. But, yeah, when it was no longer fulfilling, it felt like I had to hold on to it for a little bit because I didn't want to kind of be this person who Only does one thing because that was just such a huge part of my identity. So I'm so glad that you shared, put words to what I had been thinking and feeling it had never really found words for, as well as the mantra or the advice that you shared about following your curiosity. I love that. I love that so much, and I'm definitely going to start doing that more for myself, as well as encourage others to do that too. I want you to speak a little bit. I feel like I'm going so off script and I hope that it's okay, like.

Ijeoma Kola: 35:41

I we sent you questions and we're like no, I'm not asking any questions, but you know. Also, like reflecting on my own personal journey, I would love for you to talk about your photography business, because you did it for a really long time and then you recently shuttered those doors. So, yeah, would like for you to just like say a little bit about how, when you knew it was time to turn your head, and how you navigated that time in your life.

Kimberly Murray: 36:10

Yes, and it's so funny. I'm glad you asked because I wanted to jump in and say that, especially when you just mentioned ending that influencing influencer career that you have, because I had a decade long photography business that I built and started out to photographing children and families, eventually got to the point where I was photographing the things that I really wanted to photograph. It was products, interiors, food. I'm like this is what I dreamed about and was finally there and I had the new ask about the moment that I knew I have this big project, the highest paying project that I've ever had. I should have been super excited about it. It involved a lot of crafting and I mentioned I love crafting. So like this was like perfect and it was taking a lot of time away from other things that were important to me family, whatever. I was just like in my office office studio just getting the stuff done, finished it and was just like sat at a side like here are the images. I'm over it Didn't even submit the invoice for this like five figure project for like a month. I was just kind of like I'm so over it. I wasn't excited and it didn't bring me joy and it and I felt like it should have, like this is what should have been really exciting for me. And so at that point I thought maybe I'm just burned out, maybe I just need to take a break. That's, you know, took a lot of energy, a lot of time. I just need to rest. And then I rested and then I still wasn't really excited to come back and then I was like, well, maybe I just need some passion projects, right? So then we think, oh, I just need to fund project, that's just for me. But then those passion projects can then start to feel like work, right, because you have an expectation that it's going to look a certain way, or, you know, you just kind of make it more work than it needs to be. It's not fun, it's work. It's like work wrapped up in fun, but it's, it's work. And so over time I just started extending that break, extending that break, extending that break and realizing I don't. I don't miss it. To be honest with you, I don't miss it.

Kimberly Murray: 38:15

Why do I feel compelled to hang on to this identity? I mean, it was exactly what you mentioned before. Right, you've built this identity around this thing. If it's influencing, if it's about photography, whatever, people know me for this. People, you know, kind of give me accolades for this. I have followers around this, this is what I'm known for. How can I move away from that and start building a new identity, right?

Kimberly Murray: 38:41

And so, for me, I held on to that for a long time. It took me a minute, and I would get inquiries, and then I would say, oh, I'm not currently accepting new projects at this time, you know, and even I would put on my website I'm not. And then I would still get phone contact to me. I'm like, oh, look at the website, I'm not. So I'd have to continue to say this. And it wasn't until, you know, a few months ago that I finally stopped my Photoshop, my Lightroom subscription. I'm like why do I keep paying, you know, the 999 a month? I don't want to do photography anymore.

Kimberly Murray: 39:13

It took a minute before I changed my Instagram handle, so for a while, I was still K-Mari photo, k-mari photo, and finally it was like you know, no, dr Kimbley Murray is what I am, is who I am. And my fear, though, too, was well, how are people going to find me People who are used to me being K Murray Photo? And they're a blog post that link to this. So now the links are going to be broken, and it was this attachment to that identity, and so it felt freeing to finally change the profile.

Kimberly Murray: 39:46

Another part of me, to be honest, was if I start posting different type of content, will I lose the followers?

Kimberly Murray: 39:58

And I still sometimes worry should I post this? People are used to this, but if that's no longer what I'm passionate about, what I want to talk about, and maybe the people who started following me because of the photography they should, they should leave if that's not what they want anymore, and that's OK. Like why do I feel the need to cater to the masses? Talk to your people and it'll be fine, even if that's a group of five or 10 versus hundreds or thousands. If you feel like you can bring your full self genuinely to whatever you're doing, that's what's most important, and so I finally made that clear pivot. It's interesting, though, because I was telling someone why now, in the past three weeks, I've received a number of inquiries for really amazing photography projects that I would have loved when I was really in the thick of photography. Like why now? And someone said to me God will sometimes do this to test to see if you really are committed to this change that you're making. I was like true that.

Ijeoma Kola: 41:04

And.

Kimberly Murray: 41:04

I did fire off. I'm not accepting any photography projects, I think, for me. I will know that I really and probably fully well, I know I'm fully committed to being a coach in what I'm doing. Now I will know that I have fully released that photography identity when I take down my photography website, but I'm still proud of it and it's still part of my story and so I keep it up.

Ijeoma Kola: 41:31

Yes, as you should. You should completely be proud of it. I want to not for the podcast, but I feel like I just need to get an excerpt of what you just said for the past five minutes and upload it as a YouTube video on my channel and be like this is why I no longer influence. Here you go, because you've just said it all so, so perfectly. I don't know if anyone else can relate Maybe this was just for me but I completely, completely, completely relate, and it's so reassuring and affirming to hear you share your own kind of navigation of closing the chapter on something that when you were doing it, you loved it and then you just stopped loving it and you decided to do something else. So excited to continue following along this new journey that you're on really quickly as we start to wind down. Why coaching? Why was that your next step?

Kimberly Murray: 42:29

Yes. So next step, because it is what make little. This is where we stop right. My next step because that's what logically made sense for me when I was doing photography. I was teaching photography courses. Sometimes I would mentor and coach folks.

Kimberly Murray: 42:50

But for me it's really a matter of coming full circle and going back to the beginning when I was interested in clinical psychology and wanted to really be a therapist, and I think at the time I kind of pivoted away from the therapy part of clinical psych more towards research. Because I felt young I mentioned I came straight out of an undergrad it felt like a lot of responsibility to feel like you're responsible for somebody's life and for their happiness and for whether they make certain decisions or don't make certain decisions that might be life altering for themselves and their families. And I think at the time, really as somebody who was in their early 20s, I was like whoa, this seems really heavy and deep and a lot of responsibility. Maybe I'll just do research. And I think that, especially over the past few years, it's always been in the back of my mind. I kind of want to work one-on-one with folks, and not necessarily in a clinical sense and around mental health issues, but still to help them to thrive and to achieve optimal well-being and to really craft and create a life for themselves that they enjoy, this life that can really embrace your multiple passions.

Kimberly Murray: 44:02

I really love working with high-achieving, multi-hyphenate women. I also really love working with new and emerging leaders who are trying to find their footing and figure out how to lead from a place that really feels authentic and true to them, where they don't feel like they have to kind of change and morph into somebody that they're not in order to be successful as a new leader. And then really helping people to avoid some of those roadblocks along the way. And then I will also add that more recently, in addition to becoming a certified professional coach, also earned an additional certification as a Gallup-certified strengths coach. And so I'm really interested in helping people to operate from a position of their strengths versus weaknesses.

Kimberly Murray: 44:50

A lot of times people think, in order to be successful, I need to really work on these areas that I'm not so good at. I need to help and focus on those weaknesses and really thinking no, if you were to really focus on getting even better at those things that come natural to you, your natural gifts, that's how you really thrive. That's how you really succeed in life. To get better at those things that you're just naturally good at and great at yes, Well, that is really exciting.

Ijeoma Kola: 45:19

Thank you, excuse me. That is really exciting. I am about to go investigate your coaching services, I feel like I fit all those boxes that you shared over the kinds of people who you enjoy working with, and so we always ask our guests to wrap up with two questions. The first is what is one thing that you would do differently if you had to do your doctoral journey all over again? For a very strange reason, you have to do it again. What would you do differently?

Kimberly Murray: 45:51

I think that I would trust myself more. I don't know if that sounds like a cliche answer, but I think that I would trust myself more and trust the decisions that I was making, and I might not have done that complete pivot away from the clinical work at the time, although I loved research and still love research.

Ijeoma Kola: 46:12

Yeah. So last question what is one final piece of advice that you have for Black women and non-binary scholars who are working towards getting their doctoral degree?

Kimberly Murray: 46:23

That would be working towards getting your doctoral degree. I would say honestly, to think about why you want to get that degree and whether you really need it. Sometimes I hear people say, oh, I just have always wanted it. Ok, for what reason? For what purpose? What is it going to do for you? Because getting the degree awesome. Yes, it can open up doors. There are opportunity costs to everything. The time that you spend pursuing that degree means that you're not spending time pursuing something else or doing something else, and so really to think about whether you really need this for whatever it is that you want it for.

Ijeoma Kola: 47:00

Opportunity costs. That's a good takeaway. Make sure the math makes sense for you and for whatever you are trying to do in your life. Well, thank you so much, Dr Murray, for joining us today on the Cohort Sysys podcast. My cup was filled, it was exactly what I needed going into this weekend and I'm really, really excited for other people to just get value and encouragement from your story, from your journey and your advice.

Kimberly Murray: 47:27

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Ijeoma Kola: 47:39

Thank you again for listening to this week's episode of the Cohort Sysys podcast. If you are a Black woman interested in joining the Cohort Sysys membership community or you're looking for more information on how to support or partner with Cohort Sisters, please visit our website at wwwcohortsysdyscom. You can also find us on all social media platforms at Cohort Sisters. Don't forget to subscribe to the Cohort Sisters podcast and leave us a quick review wherever you're listening. Thank you so much for joining us this week and we'll catch you in next week's episode.