Speaker 1: 0:12

Welcome to the Cohort SysSys Podcast, where we give life to the stories, struggles and successes of Black women and non-binary folks with doctoral degrees. I'm your host, dr Jama Cola, and today I'm really honored to introduce Dr Brenda Dogway to you. She's been a terrible part of the Cohort SysSys community. She's led panels and discussions for our members, and so I'm really happy to have her with us today on the podcast. So, with a PhD in Population Health from the University of Ottawa and a Master's of Public Health, dr Dogway is a force of excellence Founder of Career Slay Mama, creator of a Complify Incorporated and host of the Career Slay Talks podcast. She not only shines as an executive within the Canadian government, but also shares her expertise via coaching and workshops through her companies, while her podcast also provides invaluable career insights, focusing on advancing Black professionals into leadership. She's also a loving wife and a mother of three wonderful children, and I'm excited to dig into this combo. So welcome to the podcast, dr Dogway.

Speaker 2: 1:17

Oh, thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here and I'm really excited to chat with you about all things Cohort, syssys, doctoral degree etc. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:29

So can you introduce yourself to us for folks who don't yet have the pleasure of knowing who you are?

Speaker 2: 1:36

Where are you?

Speaker 1: 1:36

from when do you currently live now and what are some of the things that you like to do when you're not working and running around the kids? We were just talking about kids before we started recording. So when you're not wrangling the kids, what do you like to do for yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:49

Yeah, that sounds good. So, as Dr Ajioma mentioned, I'm Brenda Dogway and I was born and raised in Kenya actually, and then I came to North America, so to Canada, to study 25 years ago. Time goes really quickly. So I came to Canada as a teenager, did the African thing and studied and studied, and studied and then I actually met my husband. So we live in Chelsea in Quebec, which is just close to Ottawa, which is the capital of Canada, and we've been here. We got married 12 years ago and we got married in Ottawa. Actually, we met in Ottawa and then we've just been shepherding our kids here and there and everywhere.

Speaker 2: 2:38

In terms of what I do when I'm not, well, my plate is pretty full most of the time with three kids and I've just taken upon a few business ventures here and there, but I think I let these ventures kind of feed my soul. I found that focusing only on the nine to five is so restrictive, and so these passion projects kind of fuel me and keep me going. So I'm a workaholic overachiever and I own those titles quite, quite, quite proudly actually.

Speaker 1: 3:16

I actually like that framing of owning the workaholic and overachiever title. I feel like there's so many people who and not to say that we should be hustling hard I'm not here for hustle culture and not going to sleep and stuff like that but I think it's okay to say that you're an overachiever. That's okay. I feel like that's okay. I appreciate that you just said so.

Speaker 2: 3:40

You got it. I feel like, rather than looking at it as like for folks who don't get it, it's like, why are you doing too much? Because it's part of who I am and I think, the more you do that internal healing work and you're no longer doing it out of a place of pain or a place of frustration, but you're actually doing it because it gives you satisfaction and joy, I'm here for it.

Speaker 1: 4:06

Yeah, yeah. That was the word I needed today. I didn't even know I needed that word, but thank you already.

Speaker 2: 4:12

Yes, yes, yes. So let me take your hat. Yeah, because all of your different hats are really beautiful too, and I think it inspires people to know that you could have multiple hats and own them and not feel like you need to diminish any one of them. Yes, it's a word. It's a word.

Speaker 1: 4:31

Yes, yes, yes. So I want to talk about your academic journey first, before we get into some of the other work that you do. How did you become interested in public health? You have an. Mph you have a doctoral degree in public health and population health. So how did you kind of first get interested in this field? And I have a feeling that we're going to have a similar life story. But let me hear your story.

Speaker 2: 4:54

So, as most African kids, I was going to do medicine. I wanted to do medicine since I was probably 12. And it wasn't one of those, you know, like you know African parents doctor, lawyer, engineer, architect or whatever Like. For me, I was just always fascinated and you know, okay, I can get all vulnerable. I had malaria when I was a kid and had it pretty, pretty bad, and that required me going to the hospital a lot, just check like hemoglobin levels and just make sure that I'm okay, and all of that being around that world, I think, really inspired me up. Obviously, I saw my doctor as a superhero. So from 12, I was pretty much like I'm doing medicine, I'm doing that, and so I went all out. You know that overachieving state. I used to volunteer in hospitals in Kenya, actually when I was a teenager, and when I look back I'm like, wow, you are really like I was a nerd, nerd. So I volunteered just to, and at that time this was in the 90s, if I'm aging myself and so AIDS was big. The pandemic that, the AIDS epidemic, was really huge and it was not a pretty sight that you were seeing in hospitals at that time, and so that stuck with me.

Speaker 2: 6:15

I was going to do medicine, came over to Canada to study. I did the International Baccalaureate for folks who know, it's like the last couple of years of high school and then I did my undergrad at UBC University of British Columbia. Somewhere along the way, the bookworm became the party animal and so I had a streak like that adjusting to freedom, whatever you want to call it and so I was actually facing academic probation at some point and I was going to be kicked out of university. And so I was a science major and I had taken on women's studies for like as an elective, for fun. I always believed in equity and equality and all that, and I was doing a lot better in the women's studies than I was in the science. Like organic chemistry did me and failed like three times, you know. So let's, let's. You know organic chemistry. I don't understand, but it's all good, you know, at least this is the story turns around. So at some point I think I had to switch majors because I was just not doing as well in the science. It was really hard for me because I was a science student, like an A student up until then, and I was like, okay, let's salvage, let's pivot, let's finish this degree. And so I graduated my undergrad with a Bachelor of Arts in political science and women's studies, but most of my transcript was actually science courses, and so when I was done, I was trying to find a backdoor into medicine and I was like, okay, I'm not going to do a science master is because clearly, like organic chemistry, we're not going to go, you know, we're not going to go back there.

Speaker 2: 8:01

Public health was the next. Like I didn't really know as much about public health and so in digging around us, like actually this sounds pretty interesting, and so I applied for for the MPH, and at the time this was post SARS. So all these public health, you know, just like this current pandemic post SARS, there's a whole bunch of public health schools that were being set up and a lot of putting in resources into public health, and so that's kind of how I ended up doing public health. And then I was like I love this, because everything about it is. What interested me about medicine was actually what? What I was looking at is the bigger picture, the macro, like how do you help the population, how do you deal with inequities for different people's and whatnot. And so I was like, oh my gosh, I think I found my groove. And then what I loved about it, too, is that it brought together the science and the arts, because until then I felt like a bit of an anomaly with this science transcript and then like one year of arts and then suddenly you have a really great. So it just made it, brought a bit of cohesion and and ever since I got into public health like absolutely love it.

Speaker 2: 9:14

And the best part of it, I think, is that even when you do public policy, health is everything. So when you're looking at climate change connects to health. You're looking at the built environment, it relates to health, and so all doesn't feel lost. And so I applied to med school the last time I think it was 2008 and I gave it. I think I'd apply three times.

Speaker 2: 9:37

I did my final shot and said, if this doesn't work, I'm laying this dream to, I'm burying it and I'm leaving it be. And so I didn't get in and I'm like I really actually felt a release, like okay, I don't have to pursue that dream anymore. And then, when I finished my master's, this was the recession of 2008, and so jobs are hard to come by. A lot of industries are shutting down. So what do you do? You just go to more school, because at the time I was single no husband, no kids. I like, what do I have to lose? So I say that's how I got into my PhD. And looking at it from a population health perspective again, it just brought all the different pieces together.

Speaker 1: 10:20

Yeah, I have two quick follow up questions. One is what high school did you go to in?

Speaker 2: 10:28

So I went to Valley Road. Tell me if you know you'll start digging people up, but I went to Valley Road for high school and I went to St Mary's for a brief stint before I moved on to Canada to finish my I be there, so I've got some saints connections and LCVR connections.

Speaker 1: 10:50

And my mouth is like because my husband went to St St Mary's like his whole life, Okay, a life for kids.

Speaker 1: 10:56

so the only reason I ask and this is like so irrelevant for people who are not familiar with life in Kenya- One of the most surprising things about like when I, whenever I'm in Kenya and when I we were living here is people like really hold on to like their high school in a way that is not the case in America, and so I'm always fascinated by I think I was like by the high school.

Speaker 2: 11:22

Hi, I'm so, and so I went to St St Mary's.

Speaker 1: 11:27

No one cares what high school you went to, at least in Nairobi. So I just I wanted to ask to see we care, we can.

Speaker 2: 11:33

We have a, we have a high school what's up group where we keep up and we have one for our, our year, and then we have one for the whole school. And it was small school, so intimate. Most people know most people older siblings went to the same school.

Speaker 1: 11:51

So yeah, yeah, that to me is like always one of the most fascinating things about like Kenyan culture. Anyway, completely unrelated my my other related follow up question was so something that I've kind of noticed as I talked to more and more people is, for some people, the especially for folks who kind of started off in medicine and ended up in public health or over the field the pivot sometimes is is you know organic chemistry or just like not?

Speaker 1: 12:20

either not doing well in science, hard science courses, or realizing that that's actually not what you care about, but you mentioned another thing, which is after you finished your masters. It was there, you were in a recession, you graduated in a recession, and so I would love for you to just talk a little bit about how the the timing of the like political economic climate also shaped and influenced your academic and then subsequently, your career path and why bring this?

Speaker 1: 12:48

up is because, you know, we're currently in a very strange, like a very dynamic, time, and so I'm sure there are people who are finishing their doctoral degree right now and are not really sure, especially where to go and not academic career, even if it was academic career, but especially for not academic career, like these are really weird right now, like lots of layoffs happening.

Speaker 1: 13:09

You know hiring freezes everywhere. So just let me to kind of talk a little bit about you know your experience kind of finishing one degree. I know it wasn't your doctorate when that happened, but finishing a degree and kind of like coming out into the job force during a recession?

Speaker 2: 13:22

Sure, so I I finished in 2008, my master's and at that time so you can imagine again Obama was like elected. Yes, we can like this, this buzz. It was a challenging time for me because I came to Canada to study, like my parents, everybody's in Kenya, and so that was a big cross. Like I had a number of crossroads, but that particular one was a big crossroad because there was also like the great return. I know there's been like the great return to Ghana recently and he had our great return to Kenya, so so all of my friends were returning and you know, for folks again who might not know Kenya or know the names of schools or whatever, like the two schools I mentioned, our private schools, a lot of people are really well connected. For me, my, my family, like my dad, was a retired public servant, but again, he, you know the type of connections that people were leveraging to move back. I just didn't feel that I had them and so I was trying to figure out where, where does it make more sense to to be? At that time I was a Canadian permanent resident and so it just made sense that you know what I mean. Like see the see the citizenship thing through. It's going to give you more options ultimately in life if you choose to stay in Canada, if you choose to return, etc. And so I I got this research internship. It really shouldn't be called an internship because we were professionals, but they named it an internship. We fought the name to the nail but it was with the International Development Research Center and they are a Crown Corporation of Canada. They do research, they fund research in Africa and developing not just Africa but developing countries. And so it was. I had done. My concentration was actually in global health because I always wanted to return in one way or another. And so doing the research internship was great because it afforded me the opportunity to actually go and do research in Kenya and I spent about three months no paid trip home, basically strategically paid trip home, but I did get to again talk to folks in the health system and this and that, and that really allowed me to get a bit more of the professional experience within that Kenyan context, cause I hadn't really actually lived or worked in Kenya.

Speaker 2: 15:52

And then, following that, actually through that research internship, one of the research interns was doing research with a professor who was looking at migration of health workers and from Kenya and from various countries, and so it was such a the connection made sense in terms of research areas and there was a lot of synergy in that are areas of interest. So at that time she was like, hey, you should come and work for me. And I was looking for a job. So I was like, sure. So I initially joined her research team as a research coordinator Great job, postmasters Like you're getting to work with researchers, understand the research world. And then, I think about eight months in she was like, hey, do a PhD. And I was like, hey, no husband, no kids. Like sure, no job, no other job. I think in retrospect I should have read the fine print. So I really didn't, so I hadn't got funding secured. And she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're gonna do it, we're gonna figure it out. But we never really did and so it really made for a very challenging doctoral experience, just because both I had to basically pay for it and, as you know, undergrad is one thing.

Speaker 2: 17:11

I think masters is very intense, but PhD is long, so it was a long, hard journey. So I think the first couple of years I had some side hustle consulting that was helpful, and then I had some teaching assistantships. I was able to kind of hobble through and make it work and then I was able to secure a couple of grant funding for the field work and that also really helped when I came back. I think that's where it got tricky, because by this point I was married and then we had our first child and now broke. Student life is hashtag, is not hashtag A Right Like. It's a very different scenario, like drinking water, eating pizza as opposed to feeding a child and finding for somebody. And my husband at the time was finishing off his master's too. So we were students and so that's where I think the experience and I really I commend you for the cohort sisters program because that's what I needed at that time and I wish I had, and so being able to give back, even if it's just sharing your story, being a mentor or whatever, I think for me it's doing the thing that I wish I had at that time.

Speaker 2: 18:27

But navigating PhD I think mid PhD I had done my data collection and I had done my. How our program was structured is you did your comprehensive exams, then you defended your proposal for your research and then you did your field work. So when I was done all of that. My we're still playing cat and mouse in terms of funding. So you have funding or you don't. Now you do it, now you don't. And at that point I was just like you know what, forget this. So I applied to jobs mid PhD program. My supervisor sabotaged a couple of them. You heard that here.

Speaker 1: 19:12

Wait, okay, is that by like writing poor letters of recommendation or?

Speaker 2: 19:16

Yeah, so I had a couple of interviews where, like it was, like you know, you landed the job. They're like where do you want your desk to be? When can you start this? And that Spoke to references oh, where are we thinking our options, where this and that? And so it happened twice for really what I would say like senior jobs, like senior analyst jobs that were really solid. And so when I applied to the Canadian government in public health, I did not put her as a reference. Guess who got the job. So you do the math. Yeah, so, and that was it, as I just put the PhD on hold and decided to work because in that season, being a broke student was just not sustainable.

Speaker 1: 20:00

Yeah, Okay, well, ooh okay.

Speaker 2: 20:04

So much to unpack.

Speaker 1: 20:06

So much to unpack. Okay, before this point, did you? Feel like you know, aside from the, as you called it, the cat and mouse funding, did you feel like that? Your supervisor was supportive of you until you found out that she was sabotaging, or they were sabotaging, your efforts to get a job. But before then was everything kind of going smoothly.

Speaker 2: 20:27

I think things were going smoothly for the most part. My take on and maybe it's a little different in the States, but my loose take on North American PhDs is that they're really long drawn and a lot of the time the supervisors squeeze as much out of you as they can while you're cheap labor, free labor, and that's the part that was just not sitting well with me and so for us. I think that the tension started early because I worked with her to get the research grant funding, and you know I don't want to throw names people under the bus, but the long and short of it was that, despite the fact that we had received funding for the project, I was never given funding for as a student, and so it's really hard to have a great harmonious relationship when you're trying to navigate things like this. But it's something that happens often and it's not to single out the supervisor that I had. Like I knew a lot of students who had a lot of promise when they came into the program and then weren't really supported when it comes to the funding, and so I was supported in the research, in the articles, in the this and that, but if you don't have your base funding, then you're not really supported because it's a really it's a fundamental part, because now you have to hustle and you got to do this and you got to do that.

Speaker 2: 21:54

And so I think I'll also say that I was never in it to be a professor, like I don't think my end goal was ever really a professor, and the more I saw about, the more I saw the life of professors I'm like so I commend. I have tons of PhD friends who've really gone. I think for me it was that 10, 15 years of grinding to then breathe out and I was like I don't know, I want money, I want to be paid, so, and public health is an interesting field because it is very applied and it is very, very it's not your typical lab PhD and so I think there's a lot of opportunity. One of the things I liked about working with my supervisor was that she did a lot of consulting for provincial government, federal government, and I think it opened my eyes into public health applied outside of the university setting and I think that has really helped actually shape my career. So it's not all doom and gloom, because there's a silver lining in there somewhere.

Speaker 1: 23:13

Okay, I'm glad you're able to see it, girl.

Speaker 2: 23:18

Therapy, okay, healing journey.

Speaker 1: 23:23

Yeah, I was gonna say something cuz I had a similar. I also did a public health doctoral degree, but it was like history of public health. It was house in a school of public health. I was really immersed in that field and one thing that really threw me off, that I didn't realize.

Speaker 1: 23:38

I feel like it's pretty unique to public health is that it's a soft money field where, like, you have to. Maybe this is kind of shape your relationship, or what kind of went awry with your supervisor at the time is that you often have to bring your own salary, like through grants, as a faculty member, and the day I like learned that I was like, so I gotta work to pay myself, but like, but you're paying me, but I'm hired the math.

Speaker 1: 24:07

That I do feel like public health, like being a Pursuing the academic route, and public health is is really not for the fainter part because it's incredibly Grant-based and your position is like your position as a faculty member in some ways is grant funded.

Speaker 1: 24:24

Yeah, I was at least that, that's how it was at my institution. So Wow, that is. I'm still like reeling over over the sabotage. But when you did kind of get the job, did you kind of then put your Dissertation on pause? At that point, are we still kind of working on it simultaneously as you were doing your full-time job? How did you juggle? I got a work that actually used to like eat.

Speaker 1: 24:54

If I also like want to finish this PhD because the longer I stay here, the more money that's costing. How did you navigate those?

Speaker 2: 25:00

Yeah, no, great, great question. And so I, you know I put it on hold. I was just like, okay, data collection is done. I think I had I'd outsourced the transcribing, so I had somebody who was Transcribing for for me and getting all of that done, and I was doing my thesis, my papers. So I had some loose drafts of the papers, but I never really they weren't ready. And then I found out I was expecting twins and so I was like I better finish this thing, because if I don't, I hate, I just won't. And that was really, that was really the impetus, was that okay, now I have, I have momentum, because if I don't finish this, I will never finish, and I like to finish what I start. And so I Was kind of fortunate this was 2016, such a while ago, but I was.

Speaker 2: 25:53

I was fortunate that the the my twin pregnancy was pretty uneventful, which is a good thing. But I did have. I was able to work from home at that time, and you know we're now so used to it, but at that time it was such a big deal to be actually able to work from home full-time and so that cut commute time for me and it just meant that when I was done, I could focus, and then my husband would take the toddler away hey, often just park, you know, entertain him while I. I would write, especially towards the end of the pregnancy I had pregnancy insomnia. I couldn't sleep. So I just I wrote is it was my nesting, if you want to call it that weird nesting, but that was my nesting, is I just have to get it done? And so Wrote through it, you know, got the people to like my committee reviewed it. I had friends, everybody like I just got the village together. I had PhD friends who read my manuscripts for me and gave me their, their feedback.

Speaker 2: 26:53

And then I I Submitted my thesis five days before giving birth. So I I was like, do you do? And I think the week before that my supervisor was like maybe we should push it. I was like we're not pushing anything, lady, listen, these babies are coming, it's being submitted. And so I submitted my dissertation. Dissertation five days later, had the babies and then I defended my thesis. I think they were three months old when I went to defend and the committee was really lenient, like not lenient, which is not to say like not to take away from the hard work that went into it, but I think they were gentler, just knowing that you know you didn't sleep like for the past three months or whatever it is, and and you know, but it was, it was, it was it felt really good to be done and the juggle was just, I think, hormons. I blame it on the hormones and nesting, but I was, it was honestly with a huge weight off my shoulders and I was glad that it was locked and loaded.

Speaker 1: 27:58

That is amazing. I I challenge anyone who has defended PhD with Twin three-month-olds at home to come and show themselves, because I've never heard of that. That is astounding.

Speaker 2: 28:16

I Do, I look back and I don't know.

Speaker 1: 28:19

That doesn't mean that you're not like a superhero. Yes, I'll take the cake at work, but that's still amazing. That is absolutely astounding. Wow, wow, wow. I so I feel like, because I'm right there and I have a four-month-old.

Speaker 2: 28:36

You know yes.

Speaker 1: 28:37

I'm like, if I there's nothing, nothing that could get me to go and stand up in front of people and explain my research right now, I don't care you, I don't you for pushing through.

Speaker 2: 28:52

You get the babies you need for that season because I think they the twins were really they were as easy as easy babies could be. So they were sleeping through the night from two months and I mean like 11 hours, like both of them. So we were like I remember the first time they slept through the night and we're like did you wake up? No, did you know? No, okay, like you know. And so we were in this weird Rested state and then the toddler was going to daycare and they were just, they were just happy babies, and so you get. I think you get what you need for that season and and that's who we need. Don't ask me about them being toddlers. That was a whole different experience Before that season. They they understood the assignment, so they did their part and we all kind of we got through it.

Speaker 1: 29:47

Love it, I love it, I love it. So I want to now talk a little bit about your post doctoral career, your non-academic career. How did your academic experience and your even prior to you starting your doctoral degree, the work that you did After your master's degree, how did some of that work Contribute to your transition and your success in the public sector would?

Speaker 1: 30:12

love to speak to some of the skills or Experiences that you picked up while you were doing your master's degree or working before your doctoral degree or during your doctoral degree. That really positioned you as a strong candidate for public sector work.

Speaker 2: 30:28

No, great question. I think I've always Maintained some level of work experience and I know a lot of folks who go into academia. Really they have their nose to the ground and you're focused on you know academics, publishing and really building that career. I mean building yours scholarly, you know Repertoire, if you want to call it that, I think, one. A couple of the things that helped was having always Some level of work experience active on my resume.

Speaker 2: 30:59

So when I, when I finished my undergrad, I worked for a couple of years at the university like enrollment services and again, you know, just building, building those Connectors between school and and work. And then within my master's, you know, after finishing that, I did that one-year research internship and that really helped again build a professional experience. And part of that research internship opened my eyes to the place for PhDs outside of academia because they were quite an um, because it's a research center. They had quite a number of PhDs working as senior program officers, overseeing like research grants and whatnot, and they they leveraged their skills by using their understanding of the research world to bring that into the professional workplace. So having a bit of those mentors slash examples really helped that you could actually see that there is a life outside of the academic four walls, if you want to call it that. And then undergrad, I mean for a PhD, I just had a hustle. So when you don't have funding, you're going to have to find creative ways to um, to to bring the money in, or whatever you want to call it. And so I did a couple of consulting contracts where, again, they're leveraging your expertise. I did a couple with that were actually linked to my PhD, and so that synergy was easy.

Speaker 2: 32:28

And and then pivoting into the professional world, I think one of the first things that I found really shocking is just not just how unwelcome PhDs can be in the professional scene, but also you can be viewed as intimidating. There is career blocking for PhDs If you have a manager who has a bachelor's and who thinks that if they give you experience, then you're going to take over, you're going to, you know, grow faster, further or whatever. So one thing I heard often is you know, if you're going to work in the government, especially Canadian government, don't put your PhD on there. You want to put that on the download? Um, I think for me how I pivoted, it is again just looking at it as a, as a plus and not a minus, and so gravitating towards roles that validate that experience, whether that's, you know, within public health. So I worked within the public health agency where, uh, the Canadian public health agency and again that skill set is directly linked Um.

Speaker 2: 33:31

And then, when I left um, finding fields where that science background is is valued and validated.

Speaker 2: 33:38

And so one of the roles I played um was that as a director of strategic policy, um, but looking at science and technology policy, and again it becomes a plus that you don't need a science background to play that role, but when you understand the research world, granting funding, et cetera, um, you bring that, that's like your secret sauce that you bring to the job, um.

Speaker 2: 33:59

And so, touching on one of the questions you asked around soft skills, um, I think one of the amazing things about a PhD is it really makes you resilient, um, it makes you creative. You're resourceful, you know where to find information quickly, right, um, and and all those are skills that are really valuable in the workplace. And then you also I mean, if you're, if you're overseeing your research project, you're managing it right, like you have a research budget, even if no matter how little that budget is, like. You have a budget that you're overseeing. You got to spend the dollars wisely If you're bringing in a team that's going to help you transcribe this and that, like each and every one of those skills, are directly not just transferable but valued in the professional place. So it's really about reframing and repackaging yourself so that you can then, um, bring those skills to the workplace.

Speaker 1: 34:50

Right, right.

Speaker 2: 34:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:52

But I I love the piece about you know, thinking about your the skills as kind of like project management.

Speaker 1: 34:59

So you're managing your project and you're managing, potentially, a team, and that framework is something that we often use in our mentorship program, kind of explaining to people who are disorienting that this is a project, this is a long term, a multi year project that you have to manage from start to finish and you are completely responsible for it. Yes, your advisor is there to support you and you know. Yes, you have your co-op mates and other people who are there to support you. But, like, this is your project and being able to translate that to a resume or a CV and our job application, I think is really critical. But it's just about branding, it's just about the language that you use it is, it is multi year like five research project with multiple stakeholders, right Interdisciplinary international team, often right Like so.

Speaker 2: 35:50

There's a lot of ways, I think in academia it's almost like well, you don't dare call yourself a primary, exact primary investigator until you have the full title, whereas in the work world you are a primary investigator. So it really is about positioning and framing, because all of those skills are things that would and, again, you're investing years into it. It's not something that you're, it's an overnight thing, right Like at least four years minimum of really focused in an area. So you are an expert, or subject matter expert you are. There's so many ways in which you can embellish what you really actually have.

Speaker 1: 36:29

It's just it's telling the true. Representing, representing, representing, yeah packaging it in a way that is palatable and understandable to non-academic folks. So I want to now talk about your, the other work that you do. So tell us a little bit about career slave mama, about a complify why did you start both of those ventures and what do they serve for you? And then, third piece of the question so why did you?

Speaker 1: 36:57

start them. What are they kind of? How do they help you and what do you kind of? How do they fit into your vision for your life? And then, how does your doctoral degree inform those two different worlds and works, if at all? And it was a very like complicated question, but hopefully you got it.

Speaker 2: 37:12

Yes no, we'll get through it. We'll get through it. So so, career slave mama. I started as a blog mid pandemic Mother's Day of the pandemic and I was just coming out of what felt like a 10 year period of grinding, which is not to say that I'm fully out of it, but the the, the preceding 10 years, like that decade of the 30 to 40 was like PhD, marriage, small children and and just feeling like I was just on the go and the go and the go and just not taking time. I felt like I lost myself in all of that and I had, I had an event that really forced me to reflect on kind of who I was, and I remember speaking to a therapist at the time and they're like, what do you like? And I'm like changing diaper, like you know what I mean, like when you're just like what do I like? I couldn't even name the reading walking, like I couldn't really put into words the things that I like, because I feel like I lost myself into roles, whether it's at work or at home, or kids and this and that love them. But you know, you know how it goes, and so it was for me a space that I wanted to create, to just pour into myself creatively. And so initially it started really as a blog and launched it, like I said, mother's Day pandemic. We didn't know how long we were going to be in lockdowns. It became a passion project. To be honest, it carried me through the pandemic quite a bit because just giving you something to write about, something to reflect on and not just think about how we were locked down and we didn't know how long it was going to be.

Speaker 2: 38:56

And I've been again. I've been giving career advice, whatever mentorship advice, in one way or another in my circle for years. So I was like, hey, let's make this a hustle because you know, overachiever right, like if we're gonna do it, gotta do it, go all the way. So I then began to kind of pivot into exploring career coaching and just learning a lot about formalizing what it was that I was doing kind of on the side. And somewhere in there I was trying to reconcile, like I like the name Korea Slay Mama, but if I'm gonna give a corporate workshop, I don't know if they really want to bring in the Slay Mama to tell them about what they need to do, and so part of that is how, you know, kind of pivoted into a compli-fie is the more you know polished, palatable, corporate, friendly face of what it is that we do, and then bringing together again skills in strategic planning, strategic thinking, offering it both from a workshop perspective or one-on-one in terms of individuals.

Speaker 2: 40:04

One thing I did realize is when I went into full-on business mode with Korea Slay Mama, it lost the fun. It felt like another task, another um, another responsibility. So I had to kind of take a step back and pick and choose, kind of sift through what were the stuff that I find fun and enjoyable and soul-feeding, and then what are the things that are more you know need to be done and a little you know, just making sure that I was not losing sight of that space where it was supposed to be something that's enjoyable and not another responsibility, and so that's kind of helped me, you know shift between the two where I think I'm able to also have better boundaries but also leave that space. I just want to be fun, I can have that fun. And the podcast I think, um, as you know, creating content.

Speaker 2: 40:58

Creating content is very it can be very draining and and and just time consuming, and so I was like I need a, I need a way.

Speaker 2: 41:08

There's, there has to be a way out of this that's not just spending hours on Canva creating Corosal or whatever you want to call them, um and and so podcast just seemed to be a way to go, because then, um, it's a little bit more scripted, controlled, repurposeable, um, but allowing me to again carry those conversations beyond me, beyond logging into something that again I can engage in. I've met so many neat people through through that process and again there's a bit of catharsis, healing, with just speaking to black professionals, hearing their experiences, and there's having those a harm movement, so so that's kind of been how we brought everything together and and the the juggle is real, some days the jungle is better than others, but I found what I found for me is, as long as something is kind of feeding my soul, it gives me the energy to do all the other things, and so that's my. Put your oxygen mask first is feed the soul, feed the creative soul or whatever it is, and then everything else will, will find its balance in one way or another.

Speaker 1: 42:13

Yeah, you are speaking all of my languages right now. I feel like you completely understand. I completely understand everything that you just said. I don't know if anyone else understands where you are. You know this idea about when you're juggling a lot of things, making sure that there's something that's still feeding your soul, cause otherwise everything just feels like busy work.

Speaker 1: 42:33

So I appreciate that and hope that that was a good reminder for other people who might be either interested in pursuing kind of side hustles or other hobbies outside of their day job or outside of their doctoral program, or people who are kind of in the thick of it and kind of juggling a couple of different things and starting to get overwhelmed. Girl, just hold on to the one thing that is bringing you joy, that fills your soul, that restores you. Keep that top of mind and that'll help give you the energy to do the rest of it. I feel like that was such amazing advice so I just had to regurgitate it for the folks in case they asked for the first time.

Speaker 1: 43:11

So, as we start to wrap up, I would love to know what is if you had to kind of do your doctoral degree all over again for some very strange reason. What is something that you would do differently?

Speaker 2: 43:26

Um, community. I think that would be the number one thing I would seek out is community and not just community, cause we had a cohort within our program and we've actually kept up with each other. We were really small, about 10 of us, and we've kept up through the different life seasons. Every once in a while we actually do get together. But I think community especially as a black woman seeking community because the PhD journey can be very lonely, alienating, and you just feel like you're alone. So I think seeking community out would be one of the things that I would do, and I'm really, like I said, it's so amazing what you're doing with Coord Sisters, cause it's exactly what folks need to get through.

Speaker 2: 44:13

The second thing I would say is funding, funding, funding, funding. Get that funding situation sorted before you embark. And just if you can't, I would have delayed starting a year or two later if that would have meant getting the funding piece figured out. I would have deferred my start if it would have meant that I would have just had a bit more time to sort the funding out, because again, I think that's what leaves you feeling like you don't have options, you feel trapped and you kind of it's just get the funding situation figured out, and then maybe the third quick thing I would say is consider not doing a North American PhD, cause I think you're Not throwing a North American on the bus.

Speaker 2: 45:03

I did, I would say all with a baby right, like right on out. I think I would say my friends who did their PhDs in Europe, their programs were much shorter, they had almost lecturer, slash, professor status from the beginning of their program and I think the goal there for at least a few friends I'm not speaking for all programs, but quite a number of friends who I have had who did their PhDs in Europe three years, four years max. So there's really this push to get you out of the program, because I found a lot of people within North America it's like let's prolongate it just because you're a chief free laborer. So I would say consider really the type of program. Talk to people.

Speaker 2: 45:59

I remember our first day for PhD. They were like oh, the Canadian average for completing a PhD seven years. I'm like you could have put that in the brochure, like you could have put that on the website. You could have said you know. So speak to people in the program just to hear what's the average, how long are people roughly taking? And then I think the last thing is just give yourself options. So as much as you're doing a PhD to be in academia, I think there's a lot the world of this. There's been quite a world of opportunities that has opened up for PhDs in not academic roles. And just don't feel stuck. There are a lot of options out there. And give yourself those options from early on, because then it just allows you to not feel trapped and just know that if this doesn't work out. I've got at least three or four of the things that I could fall back.

Speaker 1: 46:53

Yes, yeah, that was always like my. It's really funny like my dad would always say, like don't put all your eggs in one basket, and he would say that about my profession. He would say that about dating. He would say about everything, Like don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Speaker 2: 47:10

So thank you so much, so widely.

Speaker 1: 47:12

Both so wise you shared you like, kind of tackle two birds with one stone. So you answered the question about something you would do differently and also provided several pieces of really amazing advice for current and prospective Black women and non-binary doctoral students. So thank you so much for joining us on the Cohort Sys Podcast. Dr Dogby, it's always a pleasure chatting with you and we're so excited to have you as such a critical member of the Cohort Sys community, and we will definitely be sharing more information about COMPLEFI and Career Slay MAMA with the rest of our community in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 47:49

Sounds good. Thanks for having me and thanks for all you're doing with the community as well. Thank you,