Speaker 1: 0:13

Welcome to another episode of the Cohort SysSys podcast, where we give voice to the stories, struggles and successes of Black women and non-binary folks with doctoral degrees. I'm your host, dr Nijama Kola. Today. I'm thrilled to welcome a guest whose research and expertise have been illuminating the complex connections between visual culture, black studies and gender. Dr Philana Payton, an assistant professor of film and media studies at the University of California, irvine, earned her PhD from the University of Southern California. Her journey through academia has been marked by remarkable achievements, including being awarded a prestigious UC Chancellor's Postdoctoral Fellowship at the Ralph J Bunch Center for African American Studies at UCLA. Her scholarship, from extensive archival research on early 20th century Black silent cinema to her upcoming book manuscript tentatively titled Celestial Bodies, black Women, hollywood and the Fallacy of Stardom, explores the intricate tapestry of race, gender and visual culture in the world of media. Welcome to the Cohort SysSys podcast, dr Payton.

Speaker 2: 1:19

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:23

We're happy to have you, especially because there is so much happening in Hollywood right now.

Speaker 1: 1:29

I feel, like there is. It's not so often that we get to talk to someone whose research and work is so applicable to our current day to day. So I definitely want to talk about your academic journey, but also really want to get your perspective on what we're currently seeing play out in Hollywood and how that relates to your research on Black Hollywood, black women's stardom, all those things. So, before we get into all of that, tell us a little bit about yourself where you're from, where do you live now? What do you like to do when you are not being an amazing scholar?

Speaker 2: 2:00

Okay, well, I am kind of from Atlanta, but I'm also originally from Milwaukee, wisconsin. It's always really hard for me to explain where I'm from, because I've lived equally in Milwaukee as well as Atlanta, but now I have lived in Los Angeles longer than I lived in either of those places, so it's quite difficult. Typically I say Atlanta because I went to middle school and high school there and I went to Claflin University, which is the HBCU in South Carolina, for undergrad and I majored in mass communications with a business and minor in business. And then I attended University of Southern California for a master's in well, at the time it was called Critical Studies, but it was Cinema and Media Studies so in the film school and I continued on in the PhD at the same university and now I'm a professor at UC Irvine in the Film and Media Studies department, as you already mentioned, a little bit about me, aside from my work centering Black women performers, clearly I love music, I love media and entertainment.

Speaker 2: 3:13

I've always loved Black movies, specifically like since I was a kid old Black movies and then, of course, contemporary ones. And currently I'm trying to figure out the balance of this tenure track and also being a part-time filmmaker and then also figuring out my hobbies, because not everything can be worked. So my current focused hobby that I would like to learn is DJing. I have a DJ controller, so I would really love. I've always had a really intense relationship with music, but I wasn't a musician. So, yeah, I would really love to learn how to DJ, but it's very hard.

Speaker 1: 3:55

So this is going to be so random, because my husband has DJed for a really long time, like he did it in college, which is where we met. So I now need to know what DJ system you have, because I don't know the differences between them.

Speaker 2: 4:09

Yeah, I have a DDJ and it's a four channel DDJ, but I have no idea what I'm doing.

Speaker 2: 4:17

But the thing about these controllers they don't come with instructions, it's really just playing around with them, so I have to make more time to just play around with it and figure out. Thankfully, I feel like TikTok has actually been coming through lately with better tutorials than I've ever found on YouTube, so that's kind of where I'm thinking of focusing, like where I'm going to find good tutorials is TikTok. But yeah, I have no idea what I'm doing.

Speaker 1: 4:44

But you're enjoying it, and that is what matters. Yeah, Okay. So another question I absolutely have to ask is what is your favorite movie?

Speaker 2: 4:55

This is always such a hard question, but I do always kind of when you was coming.

Speaker 1: 4:59

Yeah, yeah, I kind of give always the same answers.

Speaker 2: 5:02

So historically like, my favorite movie, like of all time-ish, would probably be Carmen Jones. Came out in 1954 with Dorothy Dandridge and Harry Belafonte and Pearl Bailey and Diane Carroll just all-star cast, but contemporarily it's everybody's favorite movie, which is Love and Basketball. That was always my favorite movie yeah, everybody's favorite movie. It was an amazing movie. It was iconic. You know I will never, ever like not give Love and Basketball as props, because it was a great movie.

Speaker 1: 5:39

Yeah, I now need to watch Carmen Jones. I have to admit, I haven't seen it yet, so thank you for suggesting that. So that I can put that on my to-do list for this weekend. So you said that music has always been a part of your life, but performance and being interested in film and cinema has also beenseems like it was really important to you.

Speaker 1: 6:01

Was there kind of a moment in your childhood where you were like I want to make movies, or I want to study movies, or I want to watch movies for a living. When did you decide to pursue this professionally?

Speaker 2: 6:11

I honestly had no idea I could pursue this professionally. Like I always really loved watching old movies. I always tell people that my grandmother is actually the original film scholar in the family because she I just watched movies with her growing up and Turner Classic movies, old white movies I wasn't a big fan of the old white movies but I loved the old black movies. So like I remember watching Captain in the Sky with her and, of course, carmen Jones and being like floored and just seeing black people in this time period that I knew was extremely racist you know the fact that I'm actually watching movies with black people, with all black cast. I was just like this is amazing and like I always just had an interest in like well, I guess it all kind of starts with Whitney Houston. To be quite honest, like Whitney Houston was always really, really important to me. Like I have footage home video footage of me three years old singing an entire bodyguard soundtrack. Like it's always been. Like Whitney was special to me my entire life, and so that also led me into like you know, I think I feel like I bought Lady Sings the Blues the book when I was like 12. I would just go to Barnes and Noble, trying to figure out what to read, and I was just always really, really fascinated with black women performers from previous decades, and just thinking about knowing that it was like tumultuous to get to where they were and just being interested in their life story. But I had no idea I could study this stuff for a very long time. So I actually went to school thinking I wanted to work in TV production and it was really because, in waiting to exhale, whitney Houston was a TV producer and I was like that looks cool. She got works with a lot of buttons. I like TV, I like, you know, pop culture. That sounds amazing. Maybe I'll do that.

Speaker 2: 7:59

And so that's what I thought I was going to school for. I mean, that's what I went to undergrad thinking I was going to work in TV production, and it wasn't until I randomly took a English class as an elective called major black writers, and it was awesome. Like I took it my sophomore year and I realized in the class everybody in there was seniors, because the professor was known to be like very, very intense and everybody waited until the last minute and I just like took it for fun, like oh, that sounds like a great class, you know, and I got there and it was really intense but it was also really awesome. Like, even though I grew up going to black schools, I feel like I missed the real like black history that everybody learns, probably more like elementary, early middle school. So by the time I got to like middle school in the black area and high school, like everybody had already done black history. So everything was kind of self taught to me in regards to my knowledge of black history. So, being able to actually be in a classroom where we're studying black writers, it was just incredible to me. I never got to do a, like you know, close reading of any black literature my entire life until that class. And it was just so incredible to me.

Speaker 2: 9:10

And I ended up talking to the professor during her office hours just being like, yo, this is, this is really tight, like I'm enjoying myself, you know, like, how did you? How, what is this? What is this Like? How did you get to be able to do this? And literally she explained to me like what a PhD was, what is it, what it takes, like the fact. And she, like you know, told me like it's pretty awesome. You know, I get to talk to adults about stuff that I like and I'm like, yeah, that sounds pretty great. And then she's like you know, I got summer breaks and stuff. So yeah, I really like I was like that sounds really dope, I should look into this. And I randomly that same summer I applied to you know, the undergraduate research programs that they have.

Speaker 2: 9:53

So I applied to that and got in and I was at Howard for the summer and that was my view, my first time for real being able to do like black film, like close reading, learning about. I remember I found Bell hooks in our little library at Claflin. All the black books were in this one little room is very ridiculous setup for HBCU but all of the books by like major black authors was like cornered off into this one little room that was run by this old old lady who was hardly ever there and she had to like unlock the door for you to go in there. But I would just go in there to just like look around and I remember that's where I found Bell hooks is real to real.

Speaker 2: 10:34

So I was like my first time even being introduced to Bell hooks's work and then that summer was when I got like a crash course and I studied under this amazing Professor at Howard and she's still there, professor Montrey, missouri, at Howard, and she really, like, facilitated me understanding what research looked like and writing a paper. And then also there was just a lot of programming around what does it take to go to graduate school? Like what it is? Gre prep, it was just all of this and it was for students of color, people who don't know this stuff. I had no idea. I didn't know anybody in my family with a PhD, so I didn't know what it was until that program.

Speaker 1: 11:16

I love this. I feel like I'm remembering, like reflecting on my own teaching experience. And you got to love the students who come in and just tell me how to be you.

Speaker 1: 11:24

It makes me feel good, so I'm sure that when you were up in office hours you were making you maybe feel like that. That professor poured so much into you, but I'm sure you also made their day when you were asking them all these questions about how they get to do their work and then being able to carry on and start doing your own research. So you mentioned you went to an HBCU for undergrad. You also did a summer research program at another HBCU. When you were thinking about doctoral programs, how important was it to you to go to a space where there were people who look like you and transitioning that into like. Why did you end up choosing USC? Why did that end up being the doctoral program that you landed on?

Speaker 2: 12:13

Yeah, well, as I said, I didn't really know any. It's so funny because I don't fall into the first-gen scholars. However, I very much was a first-gen scholar because my father, he was an athlete and had no idea, like he got into school for free for playing basketball, but he had no idea of what it actually took to like really get into college and my mom, she had started and stopped me a few times, so, like I didn't have any direction in regards to applying to school. I was just applying to schools that were sending me free applications and Claflin ended up being on my radar because my dad's wife at the time was an alum and I really, really wanted to go to Howard. To be quite honest, everybody knew that's where I wanted to go. Like I was hell bent on going to Howard. And then I got Howard's scholarship package and they weren't necessarily covering what Claflin was offering. Claflin was offering a complete full ride and I was like I can't turn down a full ride just so I could say I went to Howard. So, like, going to Howard for that summer was me trying to like get to Howard at some point and it was awesome. But the next summer and so, yeah, being at HBC was important to me because I was from Atlanta and I really enjoyed being around Black people, like that's where I'm most comfortable. So it never was a question about like if I would. I never thought about whether or not like an HBC would be right for me. I knew it would, it was just which one. So Claflin was easy because it ended up being free and it was what I needed.

Speaker 2: 13:55

In regards to picking a graduate school, as I said, I did the Howard one summer and the next summer I actually did another undergraduate research program at the University of Illinois at Urbana, champaign. So that was my first time being at a PWI and it was the same type of program undergraduate research, preparing for grad school. But I also just like learned a lot about kind of like what it takes to be successful in a PhD program and then also to be successful in a tenure-track position. And then, for some reason, I was really really obsessed with coming to California. I had only visited California when I was like two, so I didn't know really anything, but I was like I'm going to California. So my only intention was to apply to all the schools in California that had film and media studies programs, and so I applied to almost all of them with no real ranking I've liked.

Speaker 2: 14:54

The school I really wanted to go to was Berkeley, because I heard a lot about the Bay but didn't, like, I say, I really didn't know anything actually about the schools, so it was just really blind. There's no one there who were film and media studies and I wanted to be in California and I ended up only getting into USC and initially I applied for the PhD and they moved me to the master's cohort. I didn't only get into USC, I got into another school. But then when I got into USC because I was waitlisted at first and then I got accepted I was like, oh well, there's really no choice. And my dad he's a huge sports fan he was like of course you're going to USC.

Speaker 2: 15:33

And everybody around me was like, yes, usc. And I was like, ok, I want to go to Berkeley, but whatever, I guess I'll go to USC, cool, cool. And I didn't have no idea what to expect, no idea whatsoever. I didn't know it was a private school until I got there and realized I couldn't get in-state tuition. I was like I had California in the name so I just assumed it was public.

Speaker 1: 15:58

No, was it.

Speaker 2: 15:59

Just a lot of this was. I have to say, my journey has been divinely guided, because a lot has just been me. What I always say is I'm going to give God options, I'm going to apply for all of the things and whatever comes to me, that is what's meant for me. I'm going to do my part and then just leave the rest up to fate. And that's how USC happened, because I really did not know much background about the school, even the prestige of the film school, until I got there and realized oh it's kind of a big deal.

Speaker 2: 16:31

I guess this school is kind of a big deal in regards to film, but it ended up being perfect for me, though, because I had a really, really supportive faculty in the Film and Media Studies department and that ended up being the game changer on why I stayed for the PhD. So I ended up doing the masters for two years and then had to reapply for the PhD. It wasn't automatic, and that was the extra five years and it was the best best option for me in regards to support. Being in LA, the kind of people I was able to meet I was so, so intentional about really almost knowing every single black person that came into the film school. I was like everybody eventually ended up knowing that I would be the one to know every black student that came into the film school.

Speaker 2: 17:20

But yeah, that's how I ended up. I didn't. It was not a whole lot of background research, aside from the fact that they had a Film and Media Studies program, and I found a couple of faculty that I felt like it would be cool to work with, but I didn't really know much. I hadn't read their books or anything, but I was like this sounds like it would be a good fit, and it was yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:39

Nice, I love that for you. I'm wondering if, because of what you study and I don't know if this is applicable I'm trying to think of another discipline where this might matter. But because you study film, to me it makes sense that the best film school is in LA. Right, I didn't even think about that.

Speaker 1: 17:58

But I don't know actually, if there's like yeah, I'm trying to think is there another academic discipline where you really, if there's a hub of activity, maybe like no even business, I feel like that can be done anywhere? I don't know.

Speaker 1: 18:14

It makes a lot of sense that you would see it be the best place really to be really connected to scholars who are researching the work. That's literally like the bedrock of the economy of that area. Yeah, I want to talk about the Master's to PhD transition, because you said you had to reapply to the program One when you were accepted to the Master's program and not the PhD program. I would love to know did you feel any type of way about not being accepted into the PhD program and then when you reapplied, did you reapply anywhere else? Or was just like I need to continue this program and I cross my fingers and pray that they accept me? Or did you kind of throw a line out to any other institutions?

Speaker 2: 19:02

Yeah. So what I learned during the undergraduate research programs was that a lot of schools did accept folks straight into the PhD without Master's. So I didn't even realize. And then I did apply to another Master's program, a Film and Media Studies program, but I was primarily applying to PhD programs, and so I got the notification that they were moving me to the Master's cohort and I was like, ok, as for consideration. And I was like, ok, cool, but that I was also wait-listed. And so I was like OK, don't know what to do with that information.

Speaker 2: 19:41

And then I got the acceptance from another school in California. I was literally I had signed the acceptance letter and left it on my desk where I was working and was going to Fox at the next day. And when I got home I checked my email. I got the acceptance letter to USC and I was like I had already bought a ticket because I was going to the bay it was in San Francisco and I told my dad he was like we changed in that flight, we're going LA, like it looks like we're going to USC, and I was like, well, I guess, so, ok, cool.

Speaker 2: 20:13

And so I didn't really know what the difference would be between the master's program and the PhD. But I was down, I was like, ok, well, I can just reapply to PhD programs, no big deal. And the difference between USC's master's and a lot of other schools is that they did come with funding, so they do offer TA ships to master students. I only ended up paying more than I should have because I didn't understand student loans, because I didn't have any for undergrad. I ended up pulling out a full student loan for my first year, even though I had some funding, which was fine. But it also sucks now because literally that's my only student loan, because the next year I ended up being nominated and receiving a fellowship for my second year. So it was going well and so, yeah, I needed the master's program. And I didn't know I needed it because the rigor between moving from Claflin, a very small HBCU, to a large PWI, was astronomical. It was a huge, huge difference. I had told people, the only long paper I had ever written was my senior thesis, which I worked on for the two summers at Howard and University of Illinois and it was only about 25 pages. That was the longest paper I ever wrote. So going into a graduate program where you're expected to write more than 120 page paper by the end of the semester, I was stressed. But also so I was starting two months in advance on paper because I was like I've never done this. This is a lot. But it was a really, really, really good practice run to me because I needed a little in between to figure out what the expectations were, what my capabilities were, without it being on the scale of the PhD. So I was able to like and then I was in classes with people who were in the PhD program. So our film theory class that everybody takes is first year PhD students as well as the first year master's students. So I'm in the classes with other PhD students and I'm figuring out like a lot of it was for me.

Speaker 2: 22:18

I realized that I was different from most of the folks coming into the program because I went to HBCU, because I was black, like that question of like what's your favorite movie? I remember them asking that when I first got there and I was like at first intimidated because of course all the white people are saying all these international experimental films I had never heard of. But then I was like you know what? They don't know the movies I know. So I'm just gonna be myself. I really cannot fake it, I don't. I can't pull out some random experimental film that ain't seen, you know. So I'm gonna say what I say Carmen Jones, loving basketball, and thankfully I had two, two people who became my really close friends to Latinx, folks who became my really close friends and they felt me, you know, and they were like, yes, of course, loving basketball.

Speaker 2: 23:14

So those ended up being like my homies because I'm like, okay, y'all feel me there. Nobody else in the room know what I'm talking about. But it was like, from that moment I also had to realize like, okay, I'm coming in with a different set of knowledge and my knowledge is valid. How do I Be in these classrooms and and not feel intimidated? And one of the things I always tell people that I realized really early was that Nobody really knew what they were talking about. And I knew that nobody knew what they were talking about because every time they would say something that Kind of sounding that it could be smart. They would every time they would always end it with but I don't really know, or I could be completely off, or this could be totally off base, or this is totally wrong. Every time I was like, yeah, nobody knows what they're talking about.

Speaker 2: 24:00

Everybody's guessing, I guess you know, Like it's very clear that everybody's guessing cool, I shouldn't feel bad about guessing, and that's what I started doing and it ended up being Great because that, like, in that film theory course, it was that professor who was in charge of nominating who would be the who would receive the fellowship for the second year. I had no idea that that was even a thing, but I was just talking like I don't know what I'm talking about, but clearly nobody else knows what they're talking about. So I'm just throw my hat in there, you know, like, and being interested, because I was watching movies I had never seen before, which I thought was really cool, and I was like, okay, like this is cool, and so it was excellent practice For me to kind of get to not be as intimidated. And so when it was time to reapply, it was also very interesting because the entire time you're in the master's program, all the faculty are telling you like there's no jobs, you're not gonna get a job, you don't make no money.

Speaker 2: 25:01

I Just understand there are no jobs, like literally the whole time and I was like, okay, like, like. I believe when people like I'm not, I'm a person who, like listens, you know, I'm not somebody who just be like Don't listen. And so I'm like it was actually me and a friend of mine. This is why boy, who I end up becoming really close friends with, and we both were like, yeah, so what? Why are we doing this? Like all they keep saying is there are no jobs, not gonna get paid. Maybe we should reconsider. You know, like in the master's program but it was so funny because we both still ended up applying and we both were the ones who got into the PhD program.

Speaker 1: 25:42

At.

Speaker 2: 25:42

USC and we both was like. We was the ones who was like nah, maybe we should think, do something different, you know?

Speaker 1: 25:50

But they told you what to expect.

Speaker 2: 25:52

So yeah, but yeah. So I applied to a few different PhD programs, but I knew I wanted to stay at USC because of the folks I had Formed community with and because of my faculty, so I also applied to, like, the American Studies program at USC. I applied to the Com program at USC. So I applied to three different schools at USC and then, of course, maybe Yale, berkeley, again something like that.

Speaker 2: 26:24

But I'm also a person who is has not really good test scores I don't do well on standardized tests and I never have and so my GRE scores were always terrible and I knew that was hindering me in a lot of programs. And now, like, gre doesn't even matter for a lot of schools. But when I was applying in 2016, people were still looking at GRE scores and so I knew that it was a really low chance of people accept up PhD programs, of accepting me, if they had to weed out based on GRE scores. And I knew with USC, they already knew me and knew what I was capable of. So I felt confident that I had a really good chance of getting in because they knew and that my GRE scores were crap, but also that I was able to show up In these classrooms, you know, and so I did feel a lot more confident that I was gonna get into USC Over any other school.

Speaker 1: 27:21

Yeah, I, this journey is really exciting to me because I think that it gives people Insight into one.

Speaker 1: 27:29

If you receive admission to a program that you wanted to do a PhD at, but they accept you into the masters, that doesn't one mean that you won't ever get your PhD and it doesn't mean that you're not qualified.

Speaker 1: 27:40

It might just mean that you need a little bit of extra time. So I feel like that's one takeaway for folks. And then, secondly, I'm astounded by the fact that you wanted to say at USC so much that you were like I'm applying to a couple of different programs, because I feel like why that's smart is because, even if you had been accepted to the American Studies program, you could still work with faculty who you'd already built relationships with in the department that you were, that you got your masters into. That's so smart and I feel like that's not. I guess you can't do that in every single discipline, but for disciplines where there is a little bit of flexibility there is, you know, you can kind of fit your research interests into another field and you want to stay in one place. Definitely, folks who are interested in applying, maybe preparing applications right now, definitely consider applying to multiple programs at one school. I think that's so smart and so clever.

Speaker 2: 28:30

So yeah, when I was in the masters program, I also was able to meet faculty from different departments and realize, like okay, I could have a very strong supportive committee at USC in general. So it doesn't really matter which department that I'm in, because I have people in American Studies, I have people in calm and I have people in cinema and media studies. And that's what I always tell people like you want to go to a place where you have support. And I had already established that I had support Not just by one faculty member, I had several who I could work with, and that is what was what was extremely important to me.

Speaker 1: 29:11

Absolutely so. Now I want to talk a little bit about your research. So you, when I was reading your bio, I was like black silent cinema. I did not know. Granted, I will it be the first submit. I'm actually not a movie buff. I'm like the one person in the world it's like, not, it's a movie.

Speaker 2: 29:29

No, you're not.

Speaker 1: 29:32

I had no idea there was even black silent cinema. So why study? And I'm also a historian, so 20th century is my jam to. I love to be in the archives. Um, why study black silent cinema and what have you learned from that work that you feel like is applicable to Current black cinema or contemporary black cinema?

Speaker 2: 29:56

Yeah, I mean, I kind of came upon Like black silent cinema, just as a black cinema person. So, as I said, like everything for me begins with Whitney Houston, all of my personal statements were I'm going to write about Whitney Houston and that is what you. I see light. You know, I was like I'm gonna write about Whitney, but I took I had to take all the general ed classes, so I definitely have to take like a silent cinema course. And I went through that entire silent cinema course and there was not one mention of Oscar Michele. And I knew the name Oscar Michele, but I hadn't seen the movies. And so I had to talk to my professor and be like can I write up my paper on Oscar Michele? And she's like oh, you know white women, like I'm so sorry, we know we didn't have time in the quarter and the semester, but I really wanted to. You know, include him. Absolutely. Yes, please write your paper on Oscar Michele. All right, cool. So that was like my first intro into Doing my own research, because I didn't learn anything in the class, I just knew of the industry and what the industry was looking like and figuring out where black people fit, and so Oscar Michele led to me also doing a project on the Lincoln Motion Picture Company, which was our early black-owned production company that started in like 1916 and went from like 1916 to 1921, and the reason I found them is because Um, one of the co-founders it was founded by two brothers, noble Johnson and his brother George Johnson. Um and noble was an actor in Hollywood, did a lot of like um, he did a lot of um background roles, but also the thing about him was he was really really good at makeup and he's doing his own makeup and so he was actually in a whole lot of movies in the teens and 20s as like different ethnicities, because he could make himself look like Any ethnicity that. There's just so many photos that I found where he's like looks you would never know is the same person. It's like that kind of extensive like prop makeup. You know that he was able to do for himself and so he was an actor. His brother was living in like Oklahoma as like working in the postal service or whatever, but then they brought him to LA like we're gonna start this production company. So, george, actually Um, he lived till he was like to like the 1970s. I think he died in like 77 or something.

Speaker 2: 32:16

He saved everything from 1916 to 1977 and UCLA acquired that collection and so his entire archive is at UCLA. So George P Johnson collection and I spent a lot of it was a another class that I ended up taking, where I ended up like spending a lot of time In that collection and just discovering all of this stuff, like everything always tell people like my entire Like research interest is almost completely self-directed and self-taught Because I get like you know the Hollywood stuff, I'll get the mainstream stuff and then have to figure out where the black people are. So being in that archive it kind of filled out a lot of the story. There are memos, there are letters where they're trying to like apply for loans at banks and getting denied because of racism. It's just like all the same stuff that we know Um. But yeah, he saved everything.

Speaker 2: 33:10

So that was really like my intro and like silent cinema is not um, like my focus. But I've done enough research because of that archive to have like a really really firm understanding of that era. And it also leads me into being able to talk about classical Hollywood, because the first black woman lead um was in a, was Came with the introduction of synchronized sound to film. So prior to synchronized sound in 1929, there were no black women leads in Hollywood produced films only in black production. So Oscar, michelle's work, and of course there would be black women in Lincoln's work and the other like people who are making race films. But Hollywood had never put a black woman as a lead until Sound, synchronized sound, and it was nine to me, mckinney, in 1929.

Speaker 2: 33:58

So I had to understand everything that kind of was happening, the kind of like, the environment, the culture of what was going on, to understand. Okay now 1929, sounds, synchronized sound, black voices, black women's voices, singing the blue, you know, chorus, dancers, all this like now, this makes sense and it starts from there and then that leads me into thinking about black women performers across history. But it started with just kind of understanding the, the climate. Right, right, yeah, you're speaking my language as a fellow historian.

Speaker 1: 34:31

I love, I feel like it's so important To lay the groundwork and understand the foundation of whatever you're studying. So, like I advocate to everyone, you have to know the history.

Speaker 2: 34:40

Yeah, me too.

Speaker 1: 34:42

You've led me into my next question, which is about black women in media um, and so I would love to know how You've seen the portrayal of black women evolve over time, and what challenges and improvements Do you think we still have to make.

Speaker 2: 34:59

Oh, I mean, there are so many hurdles to overcome. Black women been doing it like being incredible, amazing, forever, you know, and it really has consistently been at the like fault of mainstream industries like Hollywood that have, like, recognized the talent and amazingness but consistently tried to, like you know, mimic it in the worst way or just completely destroy performers, destroy them because of all kinds of racist things all the time, you know. So what I recognize is when I was really thinking about, like Whitney Houston and like when she died, it really broke me up because I remember where I was as 2012, like everything, and I was really messed up because I knew the story of Billie Holiday and Dorothy Dandridge and so many other black women performers and I'm like I just want it so bad for that not to be her story. You know, like I knew that, I knew what she was dealing with and I just really just did not want it to be her story. And so when it became that, I was like I have to understand all of the conditions that led me to Whitney and all of the women who experienced what she experienced in the industry that got us here, and so that took me back to 1929 and what I was able to recognize was patterns of treatment over time, so beginning as early as nine to me in McKinney in 29 and till today.

Speaker 2: 36:33

You know, in regards to black women being astounding and receiving, eventually receiving like mainstream validation, but also being beat the hell up while you know being incredible, you know Like having to deal with so much nonsense that their white counterparts don't lack of support, lack of major roles, like one of the things, the primary, my primary argument in my work has to do with stardom and how we define stardom, and stardom is defined based on a certain set of rules and statutes which include support by an industry, like signing somebody to a contract and then promoting them in a very particular way, putting them in back in the day be fan magazines, doing interviews, like spreading rumors, maybe even about them, and then putting them in a bunch of putting them in lead roles. You know, like they literally create stars. That is, there's a blueprint, there's a framework to the creation of stars, and what I realized was black women did not experience that at all. Like most of the time, black women were only given the opportunity to even like receive mainstream attentions because they were already like black famous. They were already performing in nightclubs, they were already touring, like they were already working in the entertainment industry. They were usually singers doing nightclubs, cabarets starting off in the cotton club, chorus dancers and all that, and then white people would discover them and then be like, okay, let's put them in a movie. But then they would put them in one movie, like with Lena Horne.

Speaker 2: 38:16

She's like the first person signed to a long-term contract but they put her in two movies where she was the lead Cabin in the Sky and Stormy Weather. They came out the same year, in 1943. And then for the rest of her seven year contract they have her just being like playing herself, singing, so that she's not a part of the plot, so it could be cut out for movies in the South, like she's never a part of and she's never given any lead role. When the one time she was up for a lead role was for Showboat, which was about a biracial woman who was passing or something, and they ended up hiring Ava Gardner, like a white woman, to play this role, even though Lena Horne was like clearly like the best person for the role, so like they never even gave her leading role opportunities.

Speaker 2: 39:03

It wasn't the same support, it wasn't the same type of like pushing in regards to like how stardom actually is defined and that tracks across time from Lena to Dorothy Dandridge to Earth, the Kit to Diane Carroll to you know it goes. The patterns are like very, very clear. And so that is how I kind of came to the supernova framework in regarding, like moving from a star to what a supernova is is when a star is dying. It's shining brighter than any star in the galaxy, but it's also internally collapsing. So by the time black women actually make it into mainstream Hollywood, of course they're like head turners, they're changing the entire industry, like everybody's like fascinated by these beautiful, talented, multi-talented, you know, performers, but also while they're like dealing with all of the worst kind of treatment, the worst kind of just like negation of who they are, while working in this industry and internally collapsing. So as they're shining brighter than, of course, everybody, they're also just getting at the worst too, and that is tracks all the way until today.

Speaker 2: 40:11

You know, I think about Megan Thee Stallion a lot because you know game changer, of course, at the top of her, again, I call her the child of Beyonce. You know, like I think about them too because, like she's incredible, she's a wonderful performer, but like, look at how she's just being hit and beaten, and beaten. It has everything to do with her being a fabulous black woman and it tracks across history. And like wanting black women performers to understand that like this is not anything new and that there are also strategies of survival that some black women kind of have come up with in order to make it through. And so I'm looking at, like how did Lena Horne end up living a long life? She quit Hollywood. She said forget this industry as soon as her contract was up. She was like I'm done with them. You know, I'm gonna sing and get my money in that way and I'm not worried about Hollywood at all, you know, and Eartha Kitt created an entire persona that was completely separated from who she was.

Speaker 2: 41:07

You know, like she talks explicitly about there being an Eartha May and an Eartha Kitt and Eartha Kitt being who everybody sees and like this like exotic, falling into all these like tropes that they want black women in. You know, like speaking all these languages being fantastical, but it was a performance to protect herself, you know. So the ones who did live a long life, what were these strategies? And then comparing it to somebody like Dorothy Dandridge, who was just like so desperate for stardom that she was just like vulnerable and open to every other kind of constant disappointment. You know what I'm saying and this is, like you know, nothing new to black women historically. You know they all can talk about their mothers and their mothers' relationship to industries and watching their mothers struggle and all of that. So it's like it's something that they know, but it's like a different level of preparation you gotta have and a different level of also like fragmentation. And so when we see somebody like you know, early on, beyonce talking about Sasha Fierce that was a performance she had to figure out how to put on a protective layer, and Janelle Monáe has always done the exact same thing and like just wanting black women to recognize that you cannot give yourself to this industry at all because they're trying to destroy you literally. They're trying to take everything that you have, mimic it with a white girl and destroy you. You know, so like it still feels so present.

Speaker 2: 42:36

And when I always compare people and I love it now because I know she recognizes it, but I give Holly Berry as an excellent example because you know she won an Academy Award the first black women to win, you know, best actors for an Academy Award, and what that means in Hollywood is that you are now recognized as the top of the top and should then be roles, should just be funneling in lead roles. People should be writing movies for you, because now you have established yourself as like the best. And that did not happen for Holly at all. Like she won this Academy Award and it's still crickets, you know, and like it took her a while to even recognize that it wasn't gonna work the same as it worked for the white people, you know, which was like really sad. But I'm also really happy to hear her say that now, like the Academy Award didn't do anything for my career and didn't do what I thought it was gonna do, like it did for everybody else.

Speaker 2: 43:32

Every other white person who wins this award and like that is what I'm talking about Like black women can be three times, 10 times, 20 times better than everyone else, but they're not given the same level of respect, not given the same level of opportunities, recognition, and it don't matter how hard we work. You know what I'm saying. So what does it mean to like create a livable life for yourself despite you know this industry, this validation not necessarily being what you were told it was supposed to be or what it was supposed to look like, yeah, I am like I cannot wait for the book to come out.

Speaker 1: 44:09

Your work is so interesting. I'm just like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like you know, these are things that I don't necessarily think about, but as you speak about them and it's so clear that you know your stuff, so I'm just really really excited and really I like I'm gonna follow up offline. Like I need to know once as someone who's also writing the book.

Speaker 1: 44:28

I don't wanna rush you and stress you but I need to know when it's coming out and when it's gonna be done, cause this is gonna be so, so impactful for not just an understanding of black women in Hollywood but, I think, especially in the culture that we live in today, where, cause those social media, lots of young black girls wanna be famous, wanna be stars. I think it's so important for that generation to understand what you're talking about, understand how stardom doesn't work the same for black women, but also the resilience and the restorative strategies that other people have used to survive the industry. Your work is absolutely amazing and fascinating. I'm so excited cause we're running out of time, but I wanna ask you one more question. That's kind of about career. So earlier you said that you are a part-time filmmaker. So I wanna understand this is gonna be a two-part question.

Speaker 1: 45:23

Part A is how and when did you realize that you wanted to pursue an academic career? Was it kind of while you were in graduate school? Did you play around with other options? And then, secondly, now that you are in an academic career environment, how do you create time for the creative work, the non-academic work, the filmmaking? So hopefully you can pull together an answer for both of those very large questions that I'm throwing at you, but I would just kind of love to know. You know, as someone else who is in academia but wants to do work and does do work outside of it. How do you kind of wrestle with those dual career or just dual identities? I don't know if you consider them identities, but yeah, I'll pause and let you answer.

Speaker 2: 46:10

Yeah, it's a great question and something I'm still obviously working through, if you look at my CV. But I knew I wanted to be a professor, despite everybody saying there was no jobs, you're not going to get a job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, well, I'm going to just try, because I did like the idea of being able to talk to adults about stuff that I, like you paying to. Be in school is a little different from being in high school and middle school, where you got to be there. I wanted to be able to talk to people who signed up for the class on purpose, or paying for it at least, because it felt like it would be a little bit more impactful in the way I was thinking about it, because I also just didn't want to fight people who actually just did not want to be there, like I'm in high school. I saw that and I commend every teacher. But it's a fight and I still deal with it, because sometimes I teach general education classes that are a requirement and I definitely deal with people who don't want to be there. But it just felt like it would be a little different. And I also love my research. I love the like, as difficult as it is, you know, in so many ways, like writing and even spiritually, like it's very hard to really be in the space to like do the work, because it's really sad a lot of the times. It's really like heartbreaking. But I knew I really do like my research, so that's also was like I really do want to be a professor, I really do want to be an R one where I have, you know, the, the funding and the support to do my research along with teaching, and I didn't even realize how much I would enjoy teaching until I started, which is really cool, because when you are interested in being at R one, nobody cares about teaching. They always nobody. There's just like it's something that you got to do on the side, but it's not emphasized at all.

Speaker 2: 48:09

But it actually ended up being the best part when I was like I graduated in 2020 and it was the world was had completely flown the part and I lost my mom in the fourth year of my, my, my PhD in 2019. And I was hell bent on finishing on time. And then I finished on time to like chaos, you know, like pan global pandemic, everything you know and like job market was really weird. Um, but I, I, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the best, and so it was really really hard getting back to my work. You know, I had to take some time to like mourn the morning I didn't get to do when I lost my mom, and then figuring out like what I wanted life to look like for myself.

Speaker 2: 48:51

Um, so in those moments where it's been difficult for me to actually write and do research, the teaching actually ended up being very fulfilling and cool, you know, and like uplifting, kind of like it was a good push, like I'd have really good students who were like really digging what I was putting down, which was nice, you know, like, and recognize that students are actually learning, which is really cool. And I'm like, ah, like the teaching part actually is pretty cool. I know y'all don't care about it, but I kind of like it, you know, like, and so that that's been really helpful for me in regards to like this full profession, like I love doing my research, but also the teaching part is cool, and don't let people tell you like it's not cool. You know, like you do have some students who, who, who, like you, who like what you like, what you do, and that makes it worth it. Um, in regards to time, I have not at all figured out how to do it all.

Speaker 2: 49:47

It is an active, active learning process. I have a mentor who I'm really looking to. She's a filmmaker, but also tenured at our R1, and she's incredible and I'm so, so grateful. She's just she's kind of just like taking me under her in like the most beautiful way that I haven't experienced in a really long time. So I'm just so grateful for her. But she's a she's a filmmaker like like awarded, recognized, and also at our R1. And so I'm really hoping that with working with her under her, learning from her, that I'll be able to figure out how to better incorporate my creative pursuits along with my with my, um, academic ones, because it is really difficult. And this book thing is you know that you I never been to book Like it's just so crazy that they want you to write a book and it's like, how do you write a book? You?

Speaker 1: 50:42

know like I wrote a dissertation cool.

Speaker 2: 50:44

But what do I do now? And I don't think people really talk about the fact that you don't know how to write a book. Like it's different, you know. And so right now, my focus is figuring out how to help her write a book and also learning from the people around me who are, who have, who are doing the things that I want to do. And, like, my mentor is Zandaboo Irene Davis and she's incredible and she's doing exactly what I want to do. Like her, her filmmaking is incredible, it inspires me, she's a professor, she's an excellent mentor.

Speaker 2: 51:17

So, like, I'm really hoping that I'll be able to figure out long term, how to be better at incorporating my creative work around, because right now it's not. I'm going to be honest, it's not really happening. You know, I'm barely learning how to DJ, because of time, you know, because I don't know how to write a book. But I'm leaning into all of my resources, all of my mentors, to figure out that, because I care about it. I want it to be good, you know. So I'm figuring that part out, but it's a constant learning process. This job is is is hard, I'm not going to lie. It's hard, it's a lot of work, but it's cool, I like it. I don't I can't imagine myself doing anything else. I want to figure out how to do this internationally so I can get out of this country. But like, I do like it, you know. So I'm just it's, it's. It's just a lot to figure out.

Speaker 1: 52:04

Yeah, I am a thousand percent with you on all the things I'm trying to figure out how to do the work outside of the country, on figuring out how to find time and balance all of the different pursuits while still loving. You know, I think for me very similar to you, like I also really enjoy teaching, like a lot Actually even as you said, like even though nobody cares.

Speaker 1: 52:26

I actually really like that part as well, so being able to to do the work, but I think it one of the things that makes the job easier. You have to really love your work, and so here you speak about your work like you really love your work. I love that so much.

Speaker 2: 52:42

I feel like I'm at the point where I'm annoyed with my work, but you really love it and I love that for you All right.

Speaker 1: 52:48

So we have two questions that we ask all of our guests on the podcast. Number one is what is one thing that you would do differently, if any, if you had to redo your doctoral journey all over again?

Speaker 2: 53:03

I definitely would have spent more time with my family, spent more time with my mom.

Speaker 2: 53:10

Specifically, I was really really focused on, like, accomplishing the PhD and getting it. That wasn't really like going home on holidays when I could have, you know, not sending Mother's Day cards when I could have, you know, and I kind of wish that I had not put my whole life on hold because, as I said, when I graduated, everything was different, you know, and I didn't have my mom, I had a lot of regrets in regards to the things I missed out on because I was trying to pursue this PhD, you know. So I would say, like don't leave your folks, you know, don't leave your family behind. Like they're coming with you, you know, and like there are, they are extremely important part of your journey. So like, yes, it's hard, yes, it's like time consuming, but also like still continue to lean into your family.

Speaker 2: 54:02

Like I did spend good time with her, but like I wish I could have, I could have done a little bit more. Um, so, yeah, like not forgetting that your, your family, they, they, you know they, you know you need them too. You know what I'm saying. And like this PhD, this, this grad school stuff is not more important than that, yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:24

I am so sorry for your loss and I really appreciate you sharing that really really important advice for folks. I think that a lot of us lose sight of it, that, because we're so, especially for the first in our families, you know our family is supporting us and they're cheering us on and they're saying it's okay that you miss this function. Yeah, that's right. You, you're getting that degree for us all right, and so I, they. They're supportive and I think it's just a really good reminder that they are equally, if not more, important than the piece of paper, than the letters.

Speaker 1: 54:55

So being able to make sure that you're spending as much time with them as possible. Thank you so much for sharing that really critical reminder for us. So my very last question is what is one piece of advice? One last you've given lots of really great advice, recommendations, but what is one final piece of advice that you can give to either perspective or current black women and non-binary doctoral students?

Speaker 2: 55:18

Yeah, I mean it is find your folks, for, honestly, like I've had a very unique and and and honestly, like cool kind of dope experience through grad school. But it was literally because I found my people and that meant, like my committee. I was like, first I was, I was intentional, I said I wanted to all black committee, you know, and like I didn't know how possible it was. It didn't seem very possible but I ended up having one. You know, my final dissertation committee was all black and it was. It was great, you know, and like I, not not going to a school for one person, because my advisor, she actually ended up leaving my last year or two, my last two years. Honestly, she went on a, she did like a visiting professorship and then she just left and went to a completely different school. But we had already had a really good relationship. But I also had other faculty members who I could really lean on throughout that time and that's I was really really grateful to have them. But also like having a really, really great group of friends. I had a great group of black women, phd student, phd friends and we all work together for years, writing together everything. Like those are my folks and they all. We were all in different programs some of us what are at different schools, like different, but we leaned on each other in regards to writing and writing together. And then I had a whole other group of friends who were all like dope artists, who keep me hip and keep me in the know as far as what's happening in the art world film world, experimental film world and like we had our own like outside, like university, black university where we were watching films together and talking about films together and making films together and like I didn't need the validation or the help from USC at all. I really had a very, very strong community that was completely outside of our program, completely outside of USC nearly, and it was because I was like so intentional about finding all the black people and I just said this is somebody for me. I'm from Atlanta, I grew up in the black neighborhood, so going to HBCU, so I know where I'm most comfortable and so like I'm so happy I did that because I was.

Speaker 2: 57:35

I didn't deal with a lot of the really, really sad stuff that I hear. Like you know, my colleagues have dealt with who were the only black women in their department only black, not in B folks. You know, like it's really, really difficult and I'm like I wasn't reaching for validation from USC at all. I was really making people at USC upset and I didn't care about that because I had my support who were tenured faculty, who had my back, you know. So it's like I wasn't really worried about kicking up a lot of dust in regards to like inequities, you know, because it's a big film school inequities, like very, very clear ones, you know, but really having community inside and outside of the university to people who have your back, who you could go to to just chill, watch movies, drink, whatever you do. And then also people who you can lean on in regards to your actual like research and writing and like having that kind of routine with people who you feel comfortable with.

Speaker 2: 58:35

So finding your people in every single level of what it means to find your people because I never expected myself to still be in Southern California, but I have faith. This is my family now, like I have friends that I've had now for a decade, which is wild, because I'm like I've had adult friends for ten years. That's so crazy like, and like we've grown up together, you know, and like these are people who I would. I would not be here without you know, and I don't want to leave them now. You know, I'm saying like I actually have so many amazing, amazing people that I've been able to really really develop intimate friendships with that have become family, and without them I would definitely not be here. So find your people and hold on to them, because they're gonna get you through such amazing advice.

Speaker 1: 59:23

Dr Payton, thank you so much for joining us on the co-horses, this podcast. I am so literally really excited for your work. I'm gonna try to see if I can you know, bug you to get like a sneak peek at the proposal or something, because I work is just so fascinating and I know a lot of people who are listening are gonna be really excited to follow along, so thank you again.

Speaker 1: 59:47

So much thank you so much thank you again for listening to this week's episode of the cohort sisters podcast. If you are a black woman interested in joining the cohort sisters membership community or you're looking for more information on how to support or partner with cohort sisters, please visit our website at wwwcohortsistascom. You can also find us on all social media platforms at cohort sisters. Don't forget to subscribe to the cohort sisters podcast and leave us a quick review wherever you're listening. Thank you so much for joining us this week and we'll catch you in next week's episode.