Dr. Ijeoma Kola 1:38

So thank you so much, Dr. Margaret A. Brunson for joining us on the Cohort Sistas Podcast. I am so excited to get to know a little bit more of your wonderful story, but can we just start by you introducing yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are, where you're from, where you currently are now, and a few things that summarize who you are and what you'd like to do.

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 1:59

Sure. Thank you for having me. I'm Margaret A. Brunson and I am an entrepreneur. I am a writer. I do quite a few things. I'm multi-passionate, multihyphenate as we say nowadays. And I live in North Carolina. I was born and raised here in North Carolina. I currently live in Durham. And I love the place I call home. There are two words that I use to describe myself and those words are leader and luminary. I've always been a leader, someone who feels really compelled to lead. I've tried to do that by example by being a light for folks. I just took on the identity of luminary as a reminder to myself that I want to be a light in the world. So that's a little bit about me. I have a sibling, an older brother who's three years older than me. And because of him and his family, I have a niece and two nephews. My parents are still alive, which I'm very grateful for. So have a very close family and a loving community.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 3:01

Awesome. So out of curiosity, you use the phrase light in the world. Is that at all rooted in religion?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 3:08

So sorta. This is a topic, and I'm sure we're going to get into this as we talk about my PhD I'm a very spiritual person. I grew up in the Christian faith and still hold tightly to a lot of Christian ideals and consider myself to be a follower of Christ. And there is so much more to my spirituality than my religious practice. And so I think to say that I'm a light is to acknowledge one, my own divinity, my own spirituality that God also lives in me. And it's also to say that when we do possess light, it is our responsibility to be that in whatever spaces we show up in. So I would say that my religious practice and my faith certainly informed how I see myself and there's so much more to my spirituality. And when I say spirituality, I mean, a sense of purpose how we ascribe meaning to our lives and to our experiences. And so that, for me, that's much broader than my religious practice.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 4:14

Wow. I'm already illuminated. That already was like, Oh wow, I've never thought about it like that, so excited to get into more. Your PhD, it's in Leadership Studies. What exactly did you study for your dissertation?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 4:29

Yeah. So I loved my program because it was just this kind of multi-disciplinary program, which I see myself as very multi-disciplinary. So I decided to do a dissertation study, and again, this goes back to spirituality. So I wanted to look at this intersection of leadership and spirituality and how our spirituality or our spiritual identity, how we identify ourselves spiritually, how that informs our leadership practice. So I did a grounded theory study, which, people told me not to do. But my advisor who was a strong, positive Black woman was like, no, you can do this. So I did a grounded theory study that looked at the connection between stressful life events, which is a sociological term, stressful life events and spiritual identity and how that connection influences or informs our leadership. So my participant group were women who were leading in academic medicine or academic medical institutions. And these were women who were at senior levels. Chiefs within their clinical departments. These were senior hospital administrators. So generally people who don't have a space to talk about their own personal struggles, their own personal lives at work. Cause we often compartmentalize those things. But as spiritual beings, there's no way to compartmentalize what you're actually experiencing as a human when you step into work. So I interviewed these women and they talked to me. It was a qualitative study of course, but they talked to me about how they name their spiritual identity, how they understand it. They talked to me about some very traumatic life events that they had experienced and we talked about what that meant for them and their leadership. The reason I chose to do this particular work is because so often you hear stories of people who have these really high level corporate positions, high level jobs, and they go through these traumatic life experiences and they do what I call, blow their life up. They say, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to go start a business. I'm going to start a bakery, a catering company. I'm going to be a photographer full time. And I'm always compelled by those stories, because that's a huge turning point, it's a huge shift. But I'm also really compelled by the people who say, you know, I don't necessarily have to change what I'm doing in terms of my career or vocation after this stressful life event, but I'm going to change how I'm doing it, how I'm working. I've always wanted to know about the people who stay, where they are after they've gone through life stuff and how do they make meaning of that? And I'm very much into qualitative research because I like stories. I think we all have a story and how we make meaning of that and use that in the world is so important to me.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 7:29

Absolutely. Do your findings impact the work that you do? So you are, as you said, an entrepreneur, you're a leadership coach. So how did your findings play a factor into your coaching business, if at all?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 7:41

Yeah, so they actually inspired me. My findings inspired me to start my business. So the theory that I developed out of my study is called Illumined Leadership. So essentially I named that these women who had gone through these experiences as a result became illumined and I broke down what that means. Pulled out the themes from what they said. And I landed on the word illumined because you used the illuminated earlier. Which is often the word that people use and it's perfectly fine. To illuminate to shine a light on something. To be illumined is to become light. So essentially you are enlightened to the point where now you embody light, so you don't have to shine an external light on anything you become light. And I named my business Illumined Leadership Solutions and I created a framework for my coaching from it. I see it as the posture, in which I move through the world. And also how I encourage leaders to lead is with their light, tapping into their own light, finding their own voice, uncovering their own purpose, and then moving from that place. So it certainly informs all of the work that I do at this point.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 9:01

That's awesome. I think that your explanation of the difference between illuminated and illumined was very clear. Illumined is you becoming and internalizing the light yourself. Illuminated it's like when you're shining it out. Okay, great. So let's talk about the doctoral journey. I have tons more questions about your current work and your current career, but we can circle back to those a little bit later. How did you end up in a doctoral program?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 9:25

I love this story. So I'll just really quickly say, my first career aspiration was to become an OB-GYN. I wanted to be an obstetrician gynecologist. And so I was going to med school. That was my goal. And I got to undergrad and just decided through a series of stressful life events that I did not want to go to medical school. I decided to just finish my undergrad in psychology. I took some time off from school. Found a master's program that I really wanted to do, which was in public administration because I found myself leading within public sector organizations. So I completed my master's degree and then I worked for a couple of years and then I went through another stressful life event. I was laid off from a job. At the same time he was going through a very tumultuous divorce. So I had all of these personal, stressful life events. Now you see what kind of informed my dissertation work. I personally was going through a lot and so I was looking for jobs, searching for employment. And then I was also like, I should go back to school because I just love learning. And I said, I'm going to become Dr. Margaret A. Brunson, but it's going to be a PhD. So I started looking at PhD programs. I had friends who were going down this academic track and I started hearing about the silos, that's what I call them. You get into an academic program and this is like your lane, you stay in your lane. And I've always been a very multi-disciplinary thinker. I've always wanted to learn about a lot of different things. So I was looking for programs that were in line with what I wanted. And I found a few apply to a few. So I got into the program that I completed at North Carolina A T and I got into one other program, but I also found a job. And so, because I had been unemployed for two years, I really needed to work. So I said, you know, this program at A T, I can work and complete this. And so I did. I started my new job in August and the same week I started my PhD program. So I worked full-time and went to school full time for three years. I don't recommend that, but...

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 11:47

But you did it. You did what you had to do.

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 11:50

Yes, we do. That's what we do.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 11:53

So quickly before we move on, what were some of your time management strategies to both work and do school? And did the program know that you were also working? Did your job know that you were in school? Was it transparent or were you kinda like on the side doing homework?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 12:08

Right? No that's important. So the program at A T, you had to have a master's coming into it. That's different for a lot of PhD programs. And it was designed for people who work because while it's a PhD, it sits in the college of education. It's leadership study. So it is a research based program, but they target people who are already working in leadership roles wherever they are. And so my classes were in the evening, so I didn't have to keep it a secret from my employer or my program that I was doing both. Now, I was advised not to take as many classes as I was taking. To go a little slower, but I was just ready. I was ready to just get it done. And so honestly, when people ask me about my time management, I really say it was my community. I found community very early on in my program. I was living in Durham and commuting to school an hour away. And so there were other students who were also in this area. We found each other very quickly. We started carpooling. We started studying together, writing together. And my time management wasn't great. I was doing a lot, I was running on fumes a lot of days. But because I had community, they held me accountable to taking care of myself, to just slowing down, to resting. So community was my time management strategy.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 13:38

That's nice. I feel like I haven't heard anyone carpooling to school and I just think that's so precious. To be honest, actually, when I was in New York, I would see the carpool lanes on the highway and I'm like, who's actually carpooling and you see it in commercials, but I actually never heard of anyone carpooling. But I love that. I think it's such a great way to commune with people. And I'm really glad that you're able to find your people really early on and they were able to be a support system for you. It sounds like when you were applying to programs, because you knew that you also needed to work, that impacted your decision on what kind of program to do. When you were applying, were you looking at programs that were a little bit more flexible? How did you go about the decision of deciding which programs to even apply to?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 14:18

That's a good question. Ultimately, I thought about why I even wanted a PhD to begin with. I had to think about what was I going to do with this degree? I knew I didn't want to just land in academia and stay there, even though now it's something that's been on my mind a little bit more. I just knew I didn't want to start there. I wanted to do some other things. I'm always a person that starts with purpose. I had to think about what is the purpose of this. And for me, it was mainly so that I could delve deeper into some topics and some areas that I like to study. And also, honestly, this is like my very real answer is credentials help, right? Credentials help in a lot of different arenas. So I've always had this love for psychology. And I looked at clinical psychology programs. And just the way so many PhD programs are set up, there is a certain trajectory that you have to follow. And if you're not really on that traditional trajectory, those programs really don't know how to hold you. They don't know what to do with you, which is why I think so many people oftentimes struggle in PhD programs because they have a vision that's different or beyond this traditional pathway. So the clinical psychology program that I was looking into, they just didn't speak to that pathway that I wanted to walk. But a few other programs did. And honestly, in hindsight, had I not been going through so much personal struggles, I feel like my spirit and mind would have been a little more open to some of those different programs. But because I really wanted to like catch my breath, make money, cause I needed to make money. That certainly impacted my decision and I don't regret it at all. I really enjoyed my program.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 16:12

It's really important as people are deciding what kind of programs to pursue to really interrogate one, your motivations and also what you need out of a program, because people have different needs. And exactly, as you said, if you know that the traditional route isn't going to work for you, then you should maybe investigate a program that has the option for you to pursue a non-traditional route. Things I wish I knew before I started, but we are making it work. We are making it work. So you've mentioned community being really important in your program. You also earlier talked about having a strong Black female mentor. So can you talk a little bit about how you found this mentor and how she impacted your professional and personal development?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 16:57

So I have to call her by name because she's an amazing woman, Dr. Ceola Ross Baber at North Carolina A T State University. She's just a gem honestly and she's one of those people that has very high expectations of us. She won't mind me saying this, but a lot of folks were like, you want her as your advisor? Like, why are you choosing her? She's so tough. And I'm like, yeah, that's why I'm choosing her because she's going to make me better. And she did, she made me better, she challenged me. But she also was very personable. I remember lunches we would go to or just conversations we had about her new grandbaby who's probably eight or nine, by now. That's wild, how time flies. But she was just really about seeing me succeed. And it was okay to her that I didn't want to do what everybody else was doing. I think a lot of times with mentorship and I've even learned this being a mentor, we really just want to create cookie cutter versions of ourselves or replicas of ourselves instead of learning who people are, who they want to be and helping them to bring that out. So like me helping you to cultivate your best self, not trying to help you become like me. And I saw that in her very early on and was just very drawn to her. So she was a great advisor. I also watched her advocate for me on my committee and, you know, asking me, what do you want or what do you want me to do about this? Do you want me to do anything? And I said, yes, I need you to intervene on my behalf. And she did it. So yeah, those are the types of things that I love, like the connection certainly has to be there for mentorship. And I'll say this just because we are Black and we are sharing this Black experience does not mean that we're always going to connect with folks who look like us. And so that's where the human connection has to be there. Like the spiritual connection. The emotional and mental connection, we have to tap into that. And like you said, one of the most important questions that we need to ask ourselves throughout life is what do I need? And I think as Black women, that is a question that we really need to sit with regularly because there are so many times that our needs are not met. We go with unmet needs and that's a whole nother conversation, but I think as it relates to this particular conversation, especially around mentorship, what do I need? And also, what am I willing to give? What are my expectations of this person? We have to have reasonable expectations of human beings. No human being is going to save us or be our mom. We can't look for mentors to be our moms. So anyway, yeah, I think I answered your question.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 19:46

You did. You both answered the question. Also gave some insight on what to look for in a mentor, which is extremely critical. Lack of mentorship is consistently the number one challenge that Black women face, at least the women we speak to in Cohort Sistas, face as they're pursuing doctoral degrees, it's like they can't find somebody. When they find someone, you know, that person is maybe advising. And there's such a big difference between academic advising and mentorship. And I think that people are maybe starting to understand that now, but, thanks so much for sharing about the specific ways in which she advocated for you, where she supported you, in which she, as a person, like connected with you on a personal level, which is so important. So yes, let's talk about funding. How was the program funded? Did you pay for it yourself? Did you have fellowships?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 20:34

Yeah, this was a very easy, simple answer. I was 100% self funded. I paid for my degree myself. And honestly that was just from a lack of energy around looking for additional resources. I was just like, you know what, I'm just going to pay for it. I'm tired. I'm working. Let me just figure this out. And that's probably one of the biggest regrets I have is not doing my due diligence to find funding because I know I probably could have found some to pay for my education. So yeah, I was fully self-funded.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 21:10

Mhmm. And at some point your mentor, did she suggest funding and you were just like, girl, I don't have the time. I can't figure that out. Did she recommend different funding opportunities for you or not really? Not even just her specifically, but did the program and did the school point you in the right direction of funding that you could have been eligible for?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 21:29

Yeah. So our program did a really good job of like pointing out opportunities, especially because most of us were working full-time in some leadership capacity, but there were a lot of folks who were interested in doing more research, being able to do some teaching while we were in the program. There were opportunities. I think time was not abundant That's what I'm trying to say.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 21:54

Absolutely. School by itself is already a lot. Working by itself is already a lot. So doing both of them at the same time, full time, is definitely impressive. So you said that when you were starting your program, you always knew that you were a multi-passionate, multihyphenate. So at what point in the program, did you decide that you were going to start a coaching business after finishing?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 22:18

So I didn't decide that until I graduated. I was organically coaching people. I've always found myself in positions of coaching, advising, mentoring, and folks really started reaching out to me for real, like not just my friends, but like other people. Margaret, I think you have a lot to offer. I'd love to pay you to sit with you and work with me. And I'm like, wait, what? And I started a business while I was unemployed, but it was consulting. And so I've always done a lot of consulting work, but coaching was something different. So after I graduated from my program and I was working full time and not going to school, I said, I'm just going to give this a try. And I started looking at coaching certifications. Then I said, I don't need a certification. Like I just finished a whole PhD. Right. I'm not doing that. And so I sat down and just thought about cause I'm big on frameworks, I like to operate from frameworks. So I thought about, what would coaching look like? And I just started it. So I started my business in 2015, was still working full time and doing that as a side hustle and then eventually launched out into full-time entrepreneurship in 2019.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 23:37

Awesome. As a fellow entrepreneur, what skills from your PhD, if any, were helpful as you launched into entrepreneurship?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 23:49

That's a really good question. I don't know that I've ever thought about this question. One thing I know that a PhD does for us is, even beyond the rigor, we are committed. If you go through a PhD program, you are committed to all the milestones along the way, you're committed to completing your dissertation. If anybody is stuck in ABD mode, they feel it because it's okay, I got to finish. I got to finish. I got to finish. And so I think that commitment to seeing it through is something that is definitely necessary for an entrepreneur, right? Cause when you're in a PhD program, you have a vision that you're going to successfully defend your dissertation and you're going to be able to move on. You see yourself at graduation, with your tam and your chevron bars as I call them. And that's your vision? And so with entrepreneurship, a lot of it is vision. I think a lot of it is committing to that vision and seeing it through. Being able to follow through on things and not quit. And I think, finishing a PhD should let you know that you're not a quitter and that you don't just give up. So I think ultimately, if I were to take kind of one major lesson from my PhD into entrepreneurship, it would be that. And I think also just the inclination that we have as scholars to do our research, to read and to study and to learn and to find different perspectives is also very necessary in entrepreneurship because there's not only one way to do this. There's not only one way to do entrepreneurship. And so doing your research, understanding what it is you want, how you want to get there, learning about other perspectives is also really helpful in this entrepreneurial journey.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 25:43

I completely agree. The reason why I asked this question is because I've thought about it myself a lot as I tried to make sense of going through a PhD for seven years and then deciding, quote unquote, not to use it by doing other work. But something that really gave me a lot of solace and made me really appreciate the skills that I learned during the PhD outside of the material knowledge is this idea of researching really. You're taught how to independently research everything. And I think that for me personally, it has absolutely made me a much better entrepreneur. Especially like the influencer world where, who knows what's happening with influencer marketing. But, I will read up on the latest influencer marketing trends and I will figure out what it is that I'm supposed to be doing in a way that maybe other people aren't because they just don't have that research inclination. If you are pursuing a PhD and you think that you want to become an entrepreneur at some point, those skills are still extremely valuable, regardless of whatever you do. So I want to talk a little bit more about Illumined Leadership Solutions, but before we do, were there any really large challenges during your doctoral journey that you want to share?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 26:53

I feel really blessed to have the experience I had and I think a lot of that is because I chose to go to a Historically Black College University for my PhD. And I was actually advised to do so by an endowed professor at my undergraduate institution, which is a predominantly white institution. And he's a Black professor who said, look, go to an HBCU for your PhD. And I hadn't even really thought about it. I started looking at programs at HBCUs and said, Oh yeah, there's a lot here. I will say, I feel incredibly blessed to have gone through the program I went through because I know hearing from friends who did not go to HBCUs and their own experiences going through their PhDs, I didn't have those same experiences. My biggest challenges were really not related to the program. They were just related to my own time and space. The time that I was going through my program, I was coming out of a very challenging season and it's like, I just kept going. I just hit the ground running because I was ready to like move on with my life. And my hindsight is always Oh, I wonder what this experience would have been like had I taken a little bit more time to heal from my personal things, my personal challenges. Yeah, looking back. I was just tired a lot. I was exhausted and I think that's gonna happen either way, but the emotional labor for me was a little bit more because I was going through a lot of personal stuff. And those are things I think we have to think about, right? We are so conditioned, especially as Black people to pursue education. Go for it. You got to have this education. And you also need to be well, right? Like we need to be well. We need to be healthy. We need to be happy. We need to experience joy. I think adding on the rigor of a PhD program can actually take you somewhere you probably don't want to go.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 28:54

Yeah, that's definitely important to consider and you're so right. You talked about credentials earlier, but unfortunately in a lot of spaces for us to be respected, we have to have additional letters behind our name. But we shouldn't do that at the expense of our wellbeing so thank you for that wonderful reminder. Now that you have been coaching for a couple of years now, what would you recommend for any current doctoral students who are thinking, maybe I want to do coaching Are there any really critical books that you feel like were helpful? Or you talked about frameworks being important for you, any frameworks or values, mindsets that you think are helpful for people who are aspiring coaches?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 29:36

Yeah. So this is something I talk about quite a bit, because you do see so many folks emerging as coaches. Similar to the conversation about mentorship, I think that coaching is a methodology and it's a modality that's not quite like therapy. There are some elements of counseling to it and so there's some elements of like guidance and counseling. But I think ultimately what I want people to know is like one, why do you want to coach? And then I think beyond the why is what are you really passionate about helping people with? What are you passionate about guiding people to? How do you want to walk alongside people? Because coaching is not just Oh, do this, do that. You know here's the formula. Because life is not about formulas, right? And I get really disheartened when I see people saying, Oh, do these four things to become this, or here are five steps to do this. Yeah, that's nice. And I need to know a little bit more about you, like who you are. So I say, the really easy thing that I think people should do initially is understand what is their framework. So I always explain this way. I watched my house be built from the ground up. So they laid the foundation and then, I would come out and look at it and then they put up the frame and when they put up the frame, that's when you can start to see Oh, here's my bedroom, here's the kitchen, here's the office, here's the bathroom. And then they put in the walls and then they fill everything else in. And so there are other houses that are framed the same as mine, but the design is different. The interior is different. No one has decorated their house the same way I have. But that framework is still there. And so the reason I like frameworks is because you can take that framework and apply it to anybody, but everyone's design is going to be just a little different. And so if you are developing a coaching business, understanding what your framework is, understanding how are you going to move people from one place to the other? How are you going to help guide people from one place to the next. That needs a framework. If not, you're just going to be spinning around and it's going to be really frustrating. The other thing I'll say too, is to someone who like is maybe in a PhD program and feeling like I don't really want to do this traditional PhD route. I really think people just need to get really clear on what it is they want to do and be okay with that. Because I think we'll never be at a point where society says Oh, you have a PhD and your an entrepreneur, that's great. People are going to say Oh, you have a PhD? Are you not a professor? Are you not a researcher? We just don't have an imagination for why people would go do something that they could do without it. I think it's okay to divest from those expectations that people have of us. If you want to get the education, you want to get the degree fine and you can still do what you want to do.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 32:51

Nice. So second to last question, you mentioned a little bit that you are starting to think about academia or entering that space again. Can you give us a little preview of those thoughts? Is it the research, the teaching? What is it that is appealing to you? What's pulling you back towards academia?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 33:10

Yeah, it's a little bit of both, honestly, because I do see myself as a practitioner. I taught for a couple of years as an adjunct. But as a practitioner, there are so many things I noticed. For example, I do a lot of executive leadership coaching. And so a lot of these folks that I'm coaching have MBAs, they're well-trained, and there are a lot of things that they're training did not offer them, especially as it relates to leadership. And I see so much in so many programs, whether it's educational folks who are being trained to be educational leaders, business leaders, corporate leaders, tech leaders and they don't really get a lot of the soft skills training that they need in order to lead people. And so there's this paradigm that even though we say leadership and management are different, we actually don't train people to know the difference. We say, Oh, you're a manager and we then call you a leader. So because I'm noticing all of these things as a practitioner and because I have a scholarly background, I'm like, Oh, I could take a lot of the things that I'm doing as a practitioner and begin to operationalize them through teaching and also lean into these things through research. Allow the observations that I'm making to inform new research helping people to tap into a different understanding of what leadership is. And so I think about, for example, being able to offer seminar courses or teaching in a business school because I'm coaching a lot of business leaders who are just like, yeah, help me lead these lead folks. And I'm like, you have a whole MBA, they not teach you this? But I realized that, people just didn't get the training. So that's, what's compelling me to academia. And I think it's also a good place to tap into some resources that we don't always have on our own. Those institutional resources are very appealing.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 35:22

and very necessary, not necessary, but very helpful to conduct a ton of research. Totally understand. Is there anything about your doctoral journey or your work that I didn't ask that you'd like to share?

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 35:35

Yeah. So I was just wanted to share that. I also still do quite a bit of consulting in addition to coaching and the consulting is something that I enjoy as well. I do a lot of organizational development work with corporations, with organizations, really helping them to build out authentic holistic leadership frameworks. And I really value this work a lot because I'm hoping that I'm a part of a new way of thinking about leadership in organizations and one that censors humanity, one that sensors like the needs of people, the wellbeing of people. And honestly, all of this is connected for me. It's what I want to start teaching folks to do. Because I think we are in a really transformative moment in our society that is begging and asking us to lead in this way. And I think I wanted to lift that up because it really does stem from a lot of the work I did in my PhD program, studying and learning about spiritual identity and how that shows up in spaces and how sometimes we don't allow that to show up in certain spaces. And so having the PhD behind my name gives me some credibility so it doesn't sound really woo, woo to a lot of people. But honestly, love and belonging are basic needs of all of us as humans. And so that also belongs in corporate spaces. It belongs in academia. It belongs in organizations. So yeah, that's some work that I'm really proud of that I wanted to just share.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 37:09

Thank you so much for sharing that. And also thank you for sharing pieces of your story with us, your work is incredibly interesting and impactful. So we're so glad that you took out time to come on the Cohort Sistas Podcast and we are excited to continue following along your journey, whether it is with coaching or consulting or maybe even academic adventures.

Dr. Margaret A. Brunson 37:32

Yes. Thank you so much. This was a beautiful conversation. I love what you're doing. It's so necessary, so just encouraging you to keep shining your light.

Dr. Ijeoma Kola 37:43

Thank you so much.